[8LimbsScientist]

I dug up this email I got as part of a mailing list a long time ago. This guy is talking about what he has seen growing up as far as the origins of 52 Hand Blocks style. It has a lot of urban slang in it, so let me just include a few notes:

- 5 Percenter are a splinter group from the Nation of Islam.

- According to the 5 Percenters, men are referred to as Gods and women referred to as Earths.

Ok, here it goes, its kind of long:

Hey Tom I got your book, just started reading it. Your book is
excellent, you have a lot of good information about martial arts.
Freeing the afrikan mind chapter in your book I like the most. The
only thing I have to debate in your book is that guy Daniel marks
claim that the 52 hand blocks was invented in brooklyn.

Thats bullshit in my opinion. In my teens I use to hang out with a
lot of five percenters that was very good with 52 blocks. Many of
these individuals was from Jamiaca Queens that learn the style when
they was in Rickersland from this cat that was called mother dear.
This brother mother dear I was told was gay, but he was a killer with
the 52 blocks because he was the individual that invented the style a
GAY GUY! From what I was told when a new jack come, if mother dear
like him, that new jack had to freely give it up, or get ROCK" THE
HARD WAY. Not many cats from brooklyn want to talk about these facts
and truth about the true oriqinator of the style was a ass taker of
this Jailhouse rock style...Hahaha

Most older cats that been too jail and been in some shit on the
streets will tell you. that back in the days many of the brothers
that learn the real 52 blocks got rock first,(got they ass hit from
behind) by this big cat name mother dear!

They never tell you that because many back then had to keep playing
the hardcore roll, if brother on the outside knew that got punk,
(rape) they knew that get no respect. Soon a brother get free from
jail and back in the streets of they urban community if if found out
they got punk, that most likly got beat down bad, and god help you if
you was a God! Many in the hoods know this big Gay cat name mother
dear was the true oriqinator of the 52 jailhouse fighting style. Many
Gods use to tell me this cat mother dear was so nice with the 52
style that he could catch a person jab or punch and kiss at the same
time counterattack. The tale that been running around for years of
mother dear down fall in the hoods of NYC, is a New Jack terrified
that mother dear was going to try and rape him bum rush mother dear
out of fear while he was standing near a jail high balcony and mother
dear fall to his death!

Now as for the 52 blocks, brooklyn, queens, and the bronx... these
three NYC areas in my opinion and from the many brothers that Sifu
Rudy had me fight against to compare my skills with these cats, was
where the 52 style was best known on the getto streets for kickings
ass and beat downs!

Brooklyn cats was known for they aggressive fast crazy wild attacks,
these cats were mostly face hunters, always throwing wild blows to
the face trying to knock a person out, and most time they did,
because of they fast aggressive attack. Many brothers from queens
didn't like Brooklyn cats, because they was the kind of people that
if you beat one of they boys in a one on one fight in they hood, they
still jump your ass!

Queens Cats that was nice with the 52 blocks was these four five
percenters by the name, Justice, born God, Life, and understanding.
Queeens 52 blocks practitioners utilize more strategy, generally
queens 52 was more of counter fighters, they like to evade, redirect
and catch they opponents off balance then finish they opponent.
Queens cats were more of show men, when a queens cat fought using the
52 style that like to look good kicking your ass, and some queeens
cats was so nice with they hands that they would talk shit at the
same time kicking your ass.

The best 52 fighter I saw was this brother name Justice, I say
justice because I saw him beat down many Brooklyn cats that claim to
be nice with the 52 blocks as well I saw him beat down many martial
artist. You see Tom these fights back then help me realize and
learned about the mindset of hard-core fighting and the reality of
real fighting. to the point that looking at justice beat down so many
people open my eyes to see real fighting is truly unpredictable and
you have to learn how to change to circumstances. If you don't learn
how to change your techniques in a fight fast and quick, you learn
the hard way that fighting slow and unrealistic methods can be very
painful and dangerous to your health or your life. This is one
reason why I train my Ba Gua zhang realistic as hell!

Bronx 52 style in my opinion were more kickers, sweeps and grappling.
I say this because every God I saw and met from the bronx that fought
using the 52 always try to apply low kicks to attack the legs of they
opponent. I think the bronx 52 style use they legs more because of
all the hills they have to walk up in that area. Anyway Tom Maoshan
can give you more information about bronx 52 style of boxing...Hahaha

I forget this cat name Maoshan use to train Ba gua Zhang in the bronx
when I visit him teaching his Ba gua class, I think he was called big
butch. this guy was big as hell, and one thing for sure if he got his
hands on you, a person better know grappling or know they shit!

Tom in conclusion I can write a book of all the brothers I met in my
younger years that was good at the 52 style. The truth of the matter
in my opinion the 52 style did not come from Brooklyn. It truly
stated in Rikersland jail with Mother dear! Mother dear is like the
Tung Hai Chuan of the 52 blocks style. Later on when cats got out of
jail many from different neighborhood community stated to add they
own style characteristics to the 52 styles, a lot of this influencese
also came from brothers that knew the 52 style, taking moves from the
two Chinese shaw brothers movies MASTER KILLER AND MASTER KILLER(The
Thirty sixth Chamber) starting Gordon Liu.

Most of the 52 blocks techniques believe it or not have a lot of
martial techniques taking from these two Gordon Liu movies, and a lot
of Gods later put they own fighting mindset and gangster style
fighting influence to they 52 blocks style. Tom when you get time
rent Master Killer and also The Thirty sixth Chamber and you see just
what I'm talking about.

Back in the days all the five percenters use to love to look at
Gordon Liu Kung Fu movies, and Gordon Liu first movie Master Killer
was the top of the list for the Gods. The reason was because of the
knowledge the monks would drop in these movies. Thus later the five
percenters come with they own Mathematics of knowledge of self and
the world!

I truly believe the five percenters got most of they stuff from these
two movies as well a few other shaolin shaw brothers kung fu movies
that was dealing with not just fighting but seeking knowledge of self
and the code of WuDe. And there was a lot of kung fu movies out
around doing that time when the 52 style was invented, displaying the
martial arts training process from beginning to end.

I was told by brother Carl who been in and out of jail a few times,
who Sifu Rudy Curry Jr, can tell you was jamiaica Queens most fear
street fighter and knew 52 style as well,they use to play nothing but
kung fu moves. Most of the inmates was five percenters. Believe me
when I tell you I know of many brothers that want to jail,with they
famly giving name, and later came out Gods.(five percenter) Females
that wanted to be Gods with be called earths.(Queens) And I saw some
good hardcode thug out woman fighters too, that was good with the 52
style.

I one time saw this girl that was nice with her hands that beat the
shit out of this brother because he didn't know the days
Mathematics. You see what Daniel Marks didn't write in your book, is
the Gods and Earths had they own Mathematics. (knowledge of self and
the world) It was kind of like a Philosophy of life base on on some
metaphysical stuff, science, literature, geography, biology, earth
science, algebra, and geometry.

The bottom line in the hood if one claim to call themself God, they
had better know they shit! Individuals in the hood could not just
call themself God or Earth and be dumb! These Gods in Earths were
like the neighborhood philosophers and to be known as an God or earth
mean you got mad respect in your neighborhood as well other hoods in
NYC.

But the down fall was you better know todays Mathematics, it didn't
matter what hood you was from, if you didn't know your Mathematics,
then you would get challenge to fight hand to hand combat, thats when
the 52 style would come in to play because of your bad understanding
of the days Mathematics.

You see the Gods and Earth had a different Mathematic for each day of
the week, and if you didn't know the right Mathematics for that day,
then one of the gods or earth would challenge to fight you right on
the street!

You can be walking with your girl, and you may walk pass a God, that
knows you are a five percenter,and they walk up to you and say: GOD
WHAT'S TODAYS MATHEMATICS? If you know the Mathematics for that day,
they give you big time respect, but if you didn't most likly you
would get beat down. Man I tell shit was crazy back in these
day...Hahaha

[Hengest]

I've seen that post somewhere before, not sure where, but it's a great read. It comes across as genuine at least. The references to Mother Dear coincide with some of the stuff on Stickgrappler's site and I particularly found the stuff about the Gordin Liu movies interesting. Now that's life imitating art!

[Wilhelm von Wankenstein]

The Mother Dear references are definitely common ground with the Stickgrappler material. What was so special about the Gordon Liu movies, though? I've grown up on a steady diet of HK flicks ranging from wuxia to gangster genres and none of the fighting in any of them has really impressed me. I should get ahold of Master Killer I and II to take a peek. Is this person writing this email the Black Taoist, by any chance?

Mind you, Rob Green of the Systema community has been a guard at Riker's Island for quite a long time. I should pop on over to the RMA forum to ask him if he knows anything about 52 Blocks, LOL.

[Hengest]

Originally Posted by Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn

Mind you, Rob Green of the Systema community has been a guard at Riker's Island for quite a long time. I should pop on over to the RMA forum to ask him if he knows anything about 52 Blocks, LOL.

Definitely! Although I suppose it depends on how long he's been there. I think a lot of that post is referring to stuff that was going on in the 70s or thereabouts.

[Tease T Tickle]

Since this thread is about differing opinions (at least the title says it is), I think the 52 blocks phenomenon is more hype over something new and novel than something really worth considering.

When I see articles or discussions about guys who can really fight, my reaction isn't, "what do they train in?" My reaction is, "What is this guy trying to sell?" Anyone can do some demos and look good doing it. Anyone can train movie actors to look tough. Anyone can open a school and convince students they know what's up.

As it is, 52 Blocks looks like another "no nonsense, kick ass in 30 days or less, REALITY martial art" just like those ads in Black Belt about arts that are too lethal for the FBI to use and makes the Navy SEALs squirm they're so violent. The prison system pedigree doesn't impress me, because as 8Limbs said in the other thread on this topic, survival in the prison system isn't based on knowing some techniques it's about knowing people who will protect you from gangrape and a late night shanking.

Stylistically, I've heard descriptions along the lines of tight movements designed with the cramped prison environment in mind. And that it is brutally efficient at ending fights. So, it's small circle krav maga, fantastic.

When somebody comes along and really blows this style up, I mean makes it as popular as, say, Systema is now, then we can see what it's worth. For now, I think it's all hearsay and marketing and I think that if there's anything at all to the claims, when it does become more accessible to the masses it'll fizzle out like all hyped up super-arts do.

[Hengest]

Originally Posted by DeStRuCtIkOn

When somebody comes along and really blows this style up, I mean makes it as popular as, say, Systema is now, then we can see what it's worth. For now, I think it's all hearsay and marketing and I think that if there's anything at all to the claims, when it does become more accessible to the masses it'll fizzle out like all hyped up super-arts do.

Normally I'd agree with you Des but it seems on this occassion there's really not all that much to market. There's only one guy offering classes in it (the aforementioned Dennis Newsome) and he only teaches it to black students that have shown a high level of competancy in the other arts he teaches. And he's uncharacteristically tight-lipped about the style too. He's been interviewed about it for a couple of publications, but that's about it. He could have made a fortune off it when he taught Mel Gibson for the first Lethal Weapon movie, but he didn't. He doesn't offer books, seminars or home study courses on the subject, or any of that.

And it's not really a new thing. Accounts seem to say that 52s' hayday was in the 70s and 80s. All the people talking about it generally say they haven't seen it for years.

I agree, all the talk about 52s may be BS, but if it is, it's more urban-legend BS than it is marketing BS, IMHO.

[voodue]

This is an interesting story because it relates to capoeira. I'm not trying to find a correlation but it is plan to see. There was a gay capoeira mestre who terrorized Rio de Janeiro in the 30's called Madame Satan. http://www.cinemamontreal.com/aw/cdv...dame_Sata.html

The stories are too common! I have read about Jailhouse Rock and think it is an offshoot of Knockin n Kickin. Knockin n Kickin can be found in the Free Islands off South Carolina. There have been reports about slaves who used this style to fight. The style was imported from African Slaves. The Free Islands were the only place Blacks were allowed to keep their African traditions.

My theory is that one of them passed on the style in jail an over the year?s new techniques were added. I find the written techniques similar to capoeira. At least the theories behind the applications. Capoeira like Jailhouse relies on spontaneity and unpredictability.

I saw Dennis Newsome years ago. (9 years) This was before I became interested in Jailhouse Rock and he never mentioned it. The event I saw him was at a Capoeira batizado. He showed up and they introduced him.

[Tease T Tickle]

Originally Posted by Hengest

I agree, all the talk about 52s may be BS, but if it is, it's more urban-legend BS than it is marketing BS, IMHO.

Then why all the recent attention to it? Did some curious martial artist(s) catch a whiff of it and actually think it might contain some never-before-known secret to self defense?

[voodue]

Originally Posted by DeStRuCtIkOn

Then why all the recent attention to it? Did some curious martial artist(s) catch a whiff of it and actually think it might contain some never-before-known secret to self defense?

It seems to me that people stumble across an article every couple of years then try to find more info on the web. I remember waiting in a doctor?s office 2 years ago reading a GQ magazine and seeing a story on Jailhouse Rock. They interviewed Newsome and some other people. The article was interesting but didn't discuss anything new.

The paper I want to get my hands on is a Thesis paper from someone back east that discusses Knockin n Kickin. I think this would be much more interesting from an African American perspective. One of the main reasons I started capoeira is because of the African roots of the art. At the time it was the only martial art I knew of that had its roots from Africa.

I know today many arts that have this association but they are hard to find. Anyway I think some one just came across the article. You would think there was more info regarding the art and that there was more than one person who knows the style. I remember growing up playing games like knuckles and slap boxing. I look back now and see remnants of knockin n kickin. We would also play the games of trying to trip one another while using our hands to push and strike.

[Hengest]

Originally Posted by DeStRuCtIkOn

Then why all the recent attention to it? Did some curious martial artist(s) catch a whiff of it and actually think it might contain some never-before-known secret to self defense?

To be honest Des, I don't think a lot of it is recent. As Voodue says, it's a subject that seems to come up in the MA community every so often, but quickly dies down when people continually come up against brick walls in researching it further. I think it all started after Lethal Weapon and has come and gone like the tide ever since.

Voodue, I too am interested in knockin' and kickin'. Difficult one to research though isn't it? I don't know if you've seen this article, but it goes into a little detail about it:

http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_long_1203.html

Also, I don't know if you've read Martial Arts in the Modern World. It has a couple of small bits on the style. (Though it's an excellent book all round and I'd recommend it to any MAist, regardless of style.)