[zefff]

Forget about attacking digits, using brute force and any other tricks for now and just focus on position above all else. I guess everyone has to get that 'white belt fighting spirit' out of the way first (I know Im not over it yet ) but once you get over that and focus on winning by position then you will be much better if you add the dirty stuff ontop of your technical skill when you need it in the streets.

Just be mindful of the dirty stuff and see your chances while rolling, you dont actually need to apply it. I dont even use things like facelocks, elbows to break guard, fist in ear or even a tight knee on belly. I know I can so I dont need to go for it, its better to develop more technical skills - anyone can rend a thumb...but anyway, if you really need to you can still maybe push the thumb off rather than actually grabbing the digit.

peace

[NeverMan]

Yes, ultimately, it's Relson Gracie BJJ.

As far as the thumb, thanks for the comments Bamboo and Zeff. I understand exactly what you are saying, however, I guess I just find it foolish to train.

When training if no one ever attacks that way then defending it will be hard, or at least harder than it would if they did in training, when someone actually does.

I understand the "concept" fighting, where it's not about a static counter-move to a certain attack. That's not what I'm talking about, so much as being comfortable with it.

Also, they apparently don't do front chokes? (Just hand to throat chokes, not talking about grabbing the gi, pulling the head down, etc, etc... talking about pinching the trechea with the thumbs in a regular choke.)

There are just so many rules. It's a good workout though, and they do emphasize position a lot, which is good.

Like I said, they are the only guys (the BJJ-type guys) around (that I have found so far) that do live resistance. That's just sad but I think it's the area I am in. This was obviously not the case in DC.

[Ninja Kl0wn]

They don't do front chokes because a front choke like that will get you armbarred immediately. As far as finger locks, the reason for not really training them is two-fold. One is that small joint manipulation is illegal in BJJ and MMA. The second is that they're not all that reliable. I can still fight hard with a broken finger. I'm pretty much done with a broken arm or when choked unconcious.

[bamboo]

...

talking about pinching the trechea with the thumbs in a regular choke

Ahh, yes, you only get to really practice that live once though.

Keep in mind that in a high stress situation the ability to pinch a small surface area on the body is GREATLY reduced, the large carotid chokes do wonders when you are reduced to gross motor skills.

And Ninja Klown is so right that baby jeebus is crying.

-bamboo

[NeverMan]

LOL.

You say "armbarred immediately". Yeah, sure, if you are applying the Frankenstein front choke. LOL. Who does that? I don't.

Second, you can't use the argument as a defense, so when you say "it's not allowed", that was the point of the argument, that's what makes it vulnerable.

I said: BJJ is weak because some things are illegal and are therefore left out.

You said: That stuff is left out because it is illegal.

I understand BJJ/MMA is a sport and therefore has deficencies like a sport, that was my point.

EDIT: As far as small joint manipulation, SURE, someone can still fight with a couple broken fingers or a broken wrist, but it's more likely they won't want to, and it makes it harder for them to do it. I think that the ease of application for small joint breaks outweighs the "they can still hit you".

[zefff]

I think the point of BJJ rules is to promote positional dominance above all else. My point, which I tried to put across with subtlety, was that if you fight with positional dominance in mind above all else, you will be the one with all the options while your opponent will be the one who is struggling for finger breaks instead of you! 'In the street' (TM) you want to be the one with knee on belly raining down strikes, not the guy who lost his back and is trying to defend a RNC.

If you are in a position where your unable to defend with broad mechanics, you are outside of your grappling knowledge and have already made the mistake a few moves ago. When you are tapped it is better to think back about how you gave up position then concentrate on the technique which was used to tap you and how to escape that. Its too late! The mistake was the giving up position, not the getting tapped!

At least this is what I think, maybe Im wrong, Im only a white belt. Other guys like Panta or Bushi would know more in depth. As I said you can still roll with strikes and illegal moves in mind, just dont apply them. If they are so easy, why waste time training them. Drill what you are worst at, not what you are best at.

peace.

[NeverMan]

I understand the "position first" mentality, and I agree that it is a very good thing. My concern is that on the street, time is of the essence. You can't roll around for 10 minutes trying to get position, you need to finish and fast, preferably on your feet and not on the ground.

That is one reason I decided to go with Tai Kai over Sachetti's. Tai Kai starts all rolling standing. My one time at Sachetti's they did it from the ground (position) and from knees.

[zefff]

But 'on your feet' IS position too!

...and BTW you dont get position, you lose it. It is you who gives it up to the opponent. So rather than seeking to take position from him I would say the BJJ I have learnt so far is more focused on protecting your own while capitalising on what he gives away, then maintaining what you have gained to continue chipping away and so close his game down till he hits zero options.

...I am only a white belt though.

Sparring from the knees is just a thing thats done to avoid injuries and to help you focus on newazza. Focusing on ground then wrestling and takedowns from standing on an alternate day is what a lot of schools do. Maybe you went on the wrong day?

peace bro!

[NeverMan]

Maybe I just have extremely limited experience and knowledge of BJJ because most of the BJJ I have seen always ends on the ground, in fact, that is usually where each person is trying to take it. They are never/rarely trying to maintain position on their feet.

I recently watched a tournament Video where the judge disqualified a guy for "slamming". I guess it's just these kinds of things that make me question BJJ.

Sachetti didn't sound like they normally do stand up since he was shocked that I had done standup at the DZR place, but then maybe he was shocked that any non-BJJ place did randori/rolling/sparring. Don't know.

For pure curiousity, I would like to know of any stories where some of you BJJers have used your BJJ in a real situation and can you describe what happened. I'm not asking to question you, I really am just curious. Thanks.

[zefff]

Originally Posted by NeverMan

Maybe I just have extremely limited experience and knowledge of BJJ because most of the BJJ I have seen always ends on the ground, in fact, that is usually where each person is trying to take it. They are never/rarely trying to maintain position on their feet.

Yes but one post you mention 'the streets' then next post you are back to sport. We have to be clear. In sport or even some one on one playground fight yes they are going to ground because they know their advantage is clearly there. If it is a true survival scenario with unknown circumstances then no way would even Renzo Gracie want to roll around on the ground. Maybe knee on belly or face down, north south at most, thats still on feet. Im sure if you look for real BJJ fight (not duel) vids you will see the guy wanting to stay up.

Originally Posted by NeverMan

I recently watched a tournament Video where the judge disqualified a guy for "slamming". I guess it's just these kinds of things that make me question BJJ.

Again that is the sports rules. The reason for it is a) neck injuries and b) using brute force is easy, BJJ wants to promote skill development not strength development. If you cant escape that sub attempt without slamming its not BJJ that is the problem, its your lack of knowledge of escapes or skill in pulling them off. You should be aiming to make your opponent be the one who is struggling and tiring themself out while you capitalise on their forceful movements and inevitable fatigue.

Originally Posted by NeverMan

For pure curiousity, I would like to know of any stories where some of you BJJers have used your BJJ in a real situation and can you describe what happened. I'm not asking to question you, I really am just curious. Thanks.

Well Bushi is a LEO and he is sold on it. Im sure he uses it more than most in his job. I train with a lot of prison officers and doormen etc. They use it to pin people and to get up quickly or reverse a bad situation if they are taken to ground.

I never get into fights but one time someone attacked me in a club. I parried the strike with my rear hand and fed the lead through, past the neck for a nice standing fig. 4 choke from the side. They went to sleep after 2 or 3 seconds and I got chucked out of the club.