[setsu nin to]

El Gato Negro

I found book about Jukado on amazon.com.

Complete Book of Jukado Self-Defense: Judo, Karate, Aikido (Jiu Jitsu Modernized). White Belt Through Black Belt. by Bruce Tegner. These book is from 1974 so you have Aikido techniques too. So its more what they created later - Jukaikido. These book you may finde on:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...roduct-details

Also there is Jukado book Black Belt Judo, Karate, and Jukado
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

Complete book of jukado self-defence
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

Hope that these books will help.

I started researching Jukado and Bruce Tegner after I found Santiago Sanchis and his Ju Jutsu Do. Well Ju Jutsu Do is just last name that he used for his martial art.
In my opinion Jukado was exelent art of its time. And Sanches and montgomery are two who destroied these art. Its good to mix arts, but you need limit. If you mix two or three styles than you get something good, but when you mix 20 styles than you get nothing.

[lakan_sampu]

hi ppol!!!!!


I heard this concept of "when someone is already lying on the ground, that someone is automatically handicapped" from my Shihan before. Yes there is grappling in Karate Do, that is why the collars and edges of the Gi is made thick for grappling or throwing.but not in ground fighting because maybe the practitioners in Japan's past didn't see it necessary since they incorporate the concept of "one blow is enough" while on ur feet. Why take it to the ground if it can be finished by standing up? Besides, engaging in ground fighting is not a VERY GOOD idea in actual combat (overall). Karate Do training in Japan (even in east Asia) is VERY DIFFERENT than western countries.

[Hengest]

Originally Posted by li_siao_lung

hi ppol!!!!!


I heard this concept of "when someone is already lying on the ground, that someone is automatically handicapped" from my Shihan before. Yes there is grappling in Karate Do, that is why the collars and edges of the Gi is made thick for grappling or throwing.but not in ground fighting because maybe the practitioners in Japan's past didn't see it necessary since they incorporate the concept of "one blow is enough" while on ur feet. Why take it to the ground if it can be finished by standing up? Besides, engaging in ground fighting is not a VERY GOOD idea in actual combat (overall). Karate Do training in Japan (even in east Asia) is VERY DIFFERENT than western countries.

Hi Li,

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on a couple of points you've raised. The fact is that there is groundfighting in karate syllabuses. It's right there in the kata. If you want more info on it I'd suggest reading anything by Iain Abernethy or Patrick McCarthy. That should bring you up to speed. Abernethy's Karate's Grappling Methods is particularly good. Groundfighting was most certainly practiced by the Okinawan fighters of old. They were fighters and new that to be a fighter you had to know all ranges.

You're right when you say being on the ground is not a good place to be, but the simple truth is, sometimes you don't have a choice. You could be subject to a takedown and before you know it you're flat on your back. What're you going to do then if you've never trained for the ground?

I assume the concept you mention is the oft-quoted Funakoshi idea of "one hit, one kill". This is probably one of the most misunderstood concepts in the martial arts world, even by karateka. The idea of "one hit, one kill" does not mean that one blow is all you need. This is an arrogant misinterpretation that could get you killed. What Funakoshi meant was that every strike should be executed with the intention of finishing the fight with that blow, not that you should stop after the first one.

And I would generally disagree with what you say about training in Asia. While I didn't study karate in the UK, I did study TKD. Comparing that to my short time in Wado Ryu in Japan, I would say that very little differs in approach or technique these days. I have a friend whose been in Kyokushin in Japan for several years, and he'll tell you exactly the same thing. Japan has just as many bad karate schools as anywhere else in the world.

[Wilhelm von Wankenstein]

Interesting! So karatejutsu did have ne waza! I was wondering about it for the longest time, since I have seen almost no kata that involve any sort of ukemi that might be translated into ne waza. Can you describe any of these methods, Hengest? I'm interested in researching them deeper because they might well lead to insights into the traditional groundfighting methods of the Chinese styles from whence they stemmed, which is certainly something missing in a lot of Chinese styles as practiced today..

[setsu nin to]

I agree that going to ground isnt good idea, but it may happend that you finish on the groung. Thats why is so important to learn groundwork too.

[El Gato Negro]

Good afternoon gentlemen. Setsu, thankyou for the info on Jukado. I will definately order thw books. Also I will stay away from the books by the other guy who you say killed the art. I find your remarks on training and mixing different styles rather interesting. Back in the day(I know I use that phrase alot but that is my reference point) the senseis and sifus frowned on students studying different styles and if they thought you were a grasshopper(a rhetorical phrase taken form the series"Kung Fu")they would refuse to teach you. And since most of the instructors knew each other they could basically tell where you trained before. Their concept was that it takes a lifetime to master one style, so, if you tried to mix and match styles you would have chop suey(which is an American phrase that we blamed on the Chinese for a whole lot of different stuff thrown into one pot). Besides, if you stayed with style long enough you would get what you needed. But, that was before they started to water down the arts to satisfy people who wanted to be like the movies.

Hengest-your point one "one punch one kill" was right on target. I really appreciate a person who does their homework. Something I learned form back in the day.

Li-your comments about fights going to the ground were valid but alot of time a person doesn't have controll of the situation, so, what then? One of the lasts fights that I lost as a teen was against a gamed leg dude who grabbed me and threw me to the ground. After analyzing the fight I came back a week later and avenged my rep(something that was important to me back then). So, if your art doesn't teach any ground fighting or at least have concepts, then practicing another art that covers it is a great idea.
El

[setsu nin to]

El Gato Negro

Good afternoon gentlemen
Midnight just past...

Setsu, thankyou for the info on Jukado
No problem. If you need something more just ask.

[lakan_sampu]

hi hengest

I did not literally mean that "one hit one kill" statement. My interpretation is like yours, sorry for the exaggeration.hheeheheheh.

Besides, I stated a "MAYBE", indicating that my perception on the Japanese practitioners that time is not so sure for I just heard it from my shihan.

I did stated "overall" in combat and I mean that usually it's not always the case in combat that you have to be lying on the ground. However, I agree on the context that you sai about groundfighting.


w/ all due respect ppol!!!!

[setsu nin to]

There are also many karate Dojos where they muxed ground techniques. i know foe few Shotokan dojos where you learn some ground techniques from Judo too.

[8LimbsScientist]

Originally Posted by El Gato Negro

Besides, if you stayed with style long enough you would get what you needed. But, that was before they started to water down the arts to satisfy people who wanted to be like the movies.

So Gato, do you believe that a single TMA art (I say TMA because many modern "single" arts are actually amalgamations of several TMA) can supply you with everything you need to be a complete fighter?

By "before they watered down the arts," do you mean that in the time you are talking about, TMAs were generally more complete than today? By complete I mean addressing all aspects of combat in an acceptable manner.