[setsu nin to]

Grappling in karate

Hengest
I don't know why I didn't think to ask this question before, but anyways...

As most of you who have been here a while are probably aware, it's my theory that 90% of karate dojo, if not more, actually teach karate incorrectly in that, regardless of ryuha, they generally only teach a small part of karate's original curriculum, i.e. the long range kicking and punching.

Since it's a common saying among karateka that kata is karate, and kata contain numerous techniques for grappling and CQ combat in general, why aren't these taught? Most dojo only seem to teach the kata itself, and spend little time on bunkai (and when they do it's often incorrect) and even less time on drilling and sparring with the techniques. No wonder most non-karateka MAists aren't convinced about karate's effectiveness.

So, I just wanted to do a little survey. Of karateka past and present here, in the dojo do/did you ever learn grappling or CQ techniques? Are/were they only standing techniques or did you learn groundfighting as well? And if you don't/didn't learn that kind of stuff, what have you done about learning and coping with this range of combat?

Cheers,
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*Gong*Sao*
I didn't see any grappling done in the dojo I was at for a little while, although I wasn't there very long. We did some close range techniques, such as elbows and wrist grab defenses (the ones in the katas). Mostly, though, it was step kumite from a long range and katas. I didn't see anyone, even the shodans and above doing any kind of groundwork or even full contact sparring. See the previous sentences for an explanation as to why I no longer train there.
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Bushi
The style and school I trained in concentrated on Bunkai and Yes there was Grappling from the Katas mostly standing, very little ground work....Oh thats GoJu Ryu
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setsu nin to
Hengest

In my opinion moust of Karate Dojos is based on sport, even is Sensei claim that its traditional moust of it will be sport.
When Karate come to the west it become very popular, than it was developed as sport ant it become very popular as sport too. People liked it, but they newer get right aproach to it. It become sport. There is no more Senseis like Sensei Gogen Yamaguchi or Sensei Seikichi Odo, if you ask people who are in Karate moust of them even whant know who they were. moust of todays Senseis are exsports which cariere is over, but they kept sport aproach to the art, not martial art aproach. There is no more martial arts value in moust Karate Dojos.
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Blade
It seems as there is a stupid division in karate dojos.
they teach kata, then in kumite practice there is no sign of anything learned in kata... so kata is there just to fill up time trainning and get new belts .
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MA dude
There are newer conteperary karate styles like enshin that have grappling and groundfighting. Daidojuku I heard has borrowed heavily from bjj's groundgrappling. There are other newer styles that teach this. For traditional styles I think goju ryu schools tend to keep grappling a part of the curriculum more than other styles. I have only heard of one shotkan school that kept the whole grappling curriculum.
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jlambvo
I've heard the speculation that when the first foreigners were given their black belts back in the 50's and 60's, they took it as some indication of mastery when in reality it was one of dedication--ie, they were only then about to begin learning the real art. Unfortunately, it was what they were given (conditioning and combative exercises) that promulgated as karate throughout much of the world. No one seemed to pay notice to the fact that the karate they had was stiff, blocky, and rigid in practice, while the old masters would fight fluidly and relaxed across many ranges.

Several of the Hatsumi-den ryu have been interchangebly known as karate in the past; I've heard of Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, and Kukishinden ryu's striking referred to as karate or karate-jutsu, probably a couple others as well over time. This has probably been the case with other martial arts of Japan. Is the discussion restricted to Okinawan arts?

I'm not clear if there is a consensus on whether Okinawan karate is indigineous to that region, or if there is an acknowledged Chinese influence (eg translating it as China hand). Although the three ryu above are not Okinawan, they certainly have strong Chinese roots. They're striking either flows in and out of joint manipulation and throws, or these are induced percussively. If you do the partnered waza motions as a solo form, I guess there are many parallels to Okinawan karate kata.
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paa069
Ive never seen karate grappling, but i would assume that it is somewhat like japanese jiujitsu, since karate is japanese. Not sure though
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Hengest


quote:

Is the discussion restricted to Okinawan arts?



That was my intention, but then to be fair I hadn't considered the point about the Bujinkan ryuha jlambvo. I've heard Koto Ryu desribed as karate before, but I didn't know about the other two.

As for karate's roots, the jury's still out on whtehr karate is essentially a Chinese art, but the influence of Chinese arts cannot be denied, particularly from Fukien province. The Okinawan Bubishi makes no bones about the fact that the techniques it illustrates are kung fu techniques.

But anyway, it's interesting that both setsu and jlambvo raise the point about karate's transition to the West and its watering down. However, although the West has certainly played a part, I think the Okinawans themselves are just as much to blame. After all it was Itosu himself that diluted his curriculum when he started teaching karate to Okinawan school kids. It's just a shame that this diluted form was basically what became karate in the West.

What MA Dude said about Enshin and Daidojuku is interesting but does anybody know whether they've resurrected karate's original grappling syllabus and then added BJJ, or have they just gone straight to BJJ? It would be a crying shame if it's simply the latter, although I fear that's the most likely situation.
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MA dude
I am pretty sure Daidojuku karate went the latter. I am not sure about Enshin its grappling seems mostly standup grappling with a few things like the armbar, but I am guessing they just took some from judo.
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EvilScott
It really depends on the school more than the style, I think. You can teach things that aren't neccassarily karate at a karate school, ie. at my WC school we do Kali for stick/knife training.
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Hengest

quote:

It really depends on the school more than the style, I think. You can teach things that aren't neccassarily karate at a karate school, ie. at my WC school we do Kali for stick/knife training.



This is kind of my point Scott. It's not a question of teaching something that isn't karate. It's a matter of teaching something that is very much karate that's missing at most karate schools. Almost any karate ryuha, by the nature of the kata they have selected to form their curriculum, should be teaching a large amount of CQC and grappling, yet hardly any do.

But you are right when you say it depends on the school.
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jlambvo
According to the Dayton, OH Bujinkan website, Momochi Sandayu's name for Gyokko ryu was Gyokko Ryu Hicho Karate Koppojutsu .

The unarmed technique of Kukishinden ryu seems to be known by many names. I skimmed over a copy of the densho which divided its techniques into categories of dakentaijutsu and jutaijutsu, perhaps an indication of the influence of Takagi Yoshin ryu (which was a close ally in more modern times). I think it previously was, or is now alternatively, simply entitled kumi uchi (as written on the Kuki clan website), since historically the unarmed technique of this school would have developed for coming to grips while fighting in armor. It does however make extensive use of heavy striking combined with grappling that could easily resemble karate, and I recall shidoshi Tony Brooks and shihan Kevin Schnieder referring to it as karate- jutsu , even peforming one partnered kata motion as a solo form to demonstrate similarities. Although the Chinese connection to this tradition is distant, it is built upon the Amatsu Tatara which supposedly goes back 2000-2500 years to Chinese and Tibetan immigrants (there are more in-depth sites but here's a quick note: http://www.dallas.net/~butchj/genera...formation.html).

Neither of these go into much groundfighting, probably due to the impracticality of ne waza in heavy armor and predominant use of weaponry; when the opponent goes down, the kata call for drawing a backup weapon to finish him (the takedowns are quite debilitating in and of themselves). It wouldn't suprise me if there was little groundfighting in any karate tradition since the opponent's wouldn't try to fight you there...? That's just speculation.

I don't direct most of this BJK stuff at you Hengest, particularily about Kukishin ryu, since (correct me if I'm wrong) the Genbukan seems to emphasize the Amatsu scrolls more than Hatsumi. I'm curious what you think of that however, my knowledge on it has been limited largely to web resources.
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[El Gato Negro]

Gentlemen, I was just surfing along when I came across this topic. I don't know if anyone is still watching this but on the of chance that someone is, I'd like to share what I have learned.

In 1975 I joined a dojo that taught Shito Ryu. My old sensei called it karatejitsu. Whenever anyone wanted to learn something specific sensei would make that person reaserch that knowledge first. While I was doing research for some techniques that I was intersted in, I came across the term karatedo quite often. I later asked my sensei what the difference between karatejitsu and karatedo was. He told me that when Gichin Funokoshi learned karate on his home of Okinawa he leared karatejitsu which meant "China hand art". When he moved to Japan he changed the character for China to one that meant empty even though it was pronounced the same. He than started teaching it as a do or way to give it a spiritual conotation and and modified it for sport to be taught in the schools.

In 1975 we were taught all fazes of combat, even ground work. It was all part of the system. If anyone wanted to compete in tournaments sensei we teach them to modify the art so they wouldn't seriously hurt anyone. Although, back then tournaments were pretty rough and people usually did get hurt, but it could have been worse. Around 1980 the karate movies were so prevalent that people thought what they saw was real karate. So, they wanted to learn all those fancy kicks and stuff. A lot of dojos that were teaching the real deal began to teach what the people wanted and so a lot of the old techniques fell by the wayside. I, personally, would not and will not train under anyone who didn't start training before the '80's. My personal bias. I also will not teach "chop socky". I still practice ground techniques and I teach it. It really irks me when people ask me if I studied BJJ. Our stuff came long before the Gracies.
El

[setsu nin to]

El Gato Negro

My old sensei called it karatejitsu
Does he have in his lineage Bruce Tegner?

He told me that when Gichin Funokoshi learned karate on his home of Okinawa he leared karatejitsu which meant "China hand art".
Sorry but there is no traditional Karatejutsu in Oknawa and it dont mean "China hand art", it mean "art of empty hand". And Karatedo mean "way of empty hand".

[Hengest]

and it dont mean "China hand art", it mean "art of empty hand".

Setsu, me old mate, for once, you're wrong!

Funakoshi changed the kanji used to write the term "karate". The kanji that were originally used to write it in Okinawa did mean "China hand" rather than "empty hand", although the term was often pronounced as toudi or tote rather than karate.

El Gato Negro: Excellent stuff sir. Exactly what I was hoping to hear. Could you tell me, the grappling that you were taught, was it based on your kata or taught to you as something seperate?

[setsu nin to]

Hengest

Setsu, me old mate, for once, you're wrong!
Who, me?

But if its diferent kanji? Isnt it? It is pronounce diferent? I am confused now.
I thought that Tode Jutsu, To-di Jutsu, Toudijutsu... mean "Chinese hand art" and that Karatejutsu mean "Empty hand art".
Can you writte something more about it pls?

[Hengest]

But if its diferent kanji? Isnt it? It is pronounce diferent? I am confused now...Can you writte something more about it pls?

setsu, you've hit upon the single most annoying thing about learning to read Japanese!

In Chinese, each kanji has a single phonetic reading. However, in Japanese, the same kanji could have any number of different readings. Some have only one, most have two, but a lot have more. I can think of at least a couple that have six or more readings!

The original kanji used to write tode, or touti or whatever you want to call it, could be pronounced "to" and means "China" or "T'ang" as in dynasty. However, it can also be pronounced "kara" and so the word "karate" was sometimes used instead.

When Funakoshi brought karate to the Japanese, he tried to move away a little from the Chinese root and so suggested that the kanji "to" be replaced with "ku" meaning "empty" or "sky". Since this kanji could also be pronouned "kara" (as well as "sora", "a", "su" and "muna"!) it meant that the change was only a written one and the phonetics stayed the same.

Hope that helps you out and doesn't confuse you more.

[El Gato Negro]

Setsu Nin To-I don't know of any Bruce Tegner but if I get a chance to talk to my old sensei I will ask him. Also, if you want to get a basic understanding of the transition of Okinawa-te to karatedo read "Karatedo-my way of life" by Gichin Funokoshi. It's been many years since I've read it but I do remember how he studied both Naha-te and Shurie(sp?)te and combined them to teach in Japan. He was also somewhat of a painter and he used the pen name of Shoto. So when people asked a student where he trained they would say Shoto's house which in Japanese would be pronounced Shoto's kan...hence the name Shotokan. But anything that my sensei said I would never question because he was(and is) an honorable man and if he didn't know something he would tell you so.

Hengest-back in the day we learned kata simply because it was part of the art. We didn't take time to break them down in the dojo. Many of us would break down the meaning of kata on our own and then come to sensei with our discoveries. In the dojo we concentrated on application of technique in a combat situation. Sensei use to say that there were too many variables out of your control when you were rolling around on the ground so the concept was do what you had to do and get up to take back some control. It could be snapping an arm with a full armbar, snapping an ankle or breaking the knee or even gouging out an eye. You see, I lived in Newark, N.J. at a time that was more violent than it is now so survival was the name of the game.
El.

[El Gato Negro]

Hengest-thanks for clearing up the kanji issue. I only know what I've read and was told. Although years ago I was starting to learn Japanese becoming a family man put that on the back burner. Your explenation was right on point.
El

[setsu nin to]

Hengest

Thanks for clearing it up. I thought all time that these are two diferent kanjis. I dodnt know that they are same. Well your explanation really helped. Thanks!



El Gato Negro
First to say, sorry for wrong informations!

Bruce Tegner was one of first US black belts in bouth Karate and Judo. He created Jukado it was mix of Karate and Judo, It was good style for its time. Later some Senseis who take school make McDojo from it. They changed name few times so today its Jiu Jutsu Do???
Also thanks for clearing things up!

[El Gato Negro]

Setsu Nin To- No problem bro. I believe this is what forums should be about-the sharing of information and knowledge. I have some old flyers around here somewhere and I started looking for them to see if I can give you more info. However, my filing system leaves alot to be desired(according to my wife) and I can not yet find them. I do remember that my old sensei learned Shito Ryu from a guy by the last name of Cheatem(sp?). When I can get more info I'll pass it on.

Also, when I was a teen I remember coming across a book about Jukado. I read and reread it because it expanded on the skills that I learned from my uncles and cousin. Do you know if that book is still in print and if say where can I order it. It would be nice to add it to my collection.
El