[setsu nin to]

Modern (Gendai ryu) Jujitsu v. Traditional (Koryu) Jujutsu: Old Forum Topic

Bushi
For those familiar with the difference, I ask for a comparison more than a versus type thread. I was wondering where you stand as to the similarities of these two. Now i concede that some Gendai ryu try to be identical to Koryu, even in their training style but, most do not. I am of the opinion that JUDO is the deciding factor. I feel that most founders of these Gendai Ryu have taken techniques from Koryu Jujutsu, Karate and the like and used the philosphy, techniques and training model of Kano and made their current Jujutsu systems.

There are very few Koryu Jujutsu ryuhas and have traditionally taught techniques as two man kata and did not have a belt system but teacher and student rankings.

I feel the Gendai ryu have been formed to fill the void of Koryu jujutsu schools and instruction. Being that there are very little official instructors and schools around.
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setsu nin to
Bushi

I found myself in Koryu and I prefere it much than Gendai. I found many impresive things in traditional martial arts but unfortunatly I didnt find impresive things in modern arts. Maybe I didnt search enought
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Bushi
You are very lucky to have a Koryu school available. In the US this is next to impossible. If you want to study Nihon arts in US you have to settle for Gendai. Either way from your experience and research, is there a Gendai ryu that comes really close in similarity to a Koryu? Which?
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jng44
please enlighten me. What does this koryu or gendai ryu karate style have that TKD, TSD, chinese kempo, hapkido, MT, WC and other arts dont? This truly is a curiousity I just dont understand what traditional or modern japanese striking arts have that others dont?
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Bushi
I am the one confused. We are talking about the two types of Jujutsu.

For those not familiar...

I would say 9 times out of 10 when you see a Jujutsu school it is Gendai ryu. meaning not that very old, meaning not actual Samurai style of hand-to-hand. The actual schools and their affiliates are very rare, next to endangered. If some one has the opportunity to train inan Actual Koryu (Ancient school-pre 186 Jujutsu dojo they are lucky. It really has nothing to do with having something that others do not. The only problem you run into is most Jujutsu school claim to be teaching a Samurai art which they are not since I just said 9 out of 10 are Gendai ryu (Modern Schools)
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setsu nin to
Bushi

Well maybe it would be good to use as example Kansen-ryu. I writted about it yeterday.

Kansen-ryu is modern art which is created from techniques of traditional Jujutsu and Judo. There is nothing new in Kansen-ryu, you may finde techniques from many tradtional ryuhas and Judo (before it become Olimpic sport). So its nice example of ryuha which have combination of old and new.
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Bushi
I agree that Kansen ryu is a good example. I think a real problem when discussing this subject is the lack of universal definitions for some of the things. I think when ppl hear the term "Modern" Jujitsu they think about BJJ which is only partially right.
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jlambvo
Here's my little novella on the subject. Been a while since i've graced you with one of my long-winded posts

I have only personally trained at two gendai "jujitsu" schools, and very briefly at each (some MA friends of mine I met at college belong to one in their hometown, which I went to a couple of times with them. Beyond this, my opinion is formulated on techniques demonstrated in competitions like the UFC that are attributed to a jujitsu background. Although strictly speaking, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu as an entity itself is definately gendai, the schools it draws from are not. My perception of koryu jujutsu is based mostly on what I've seen from Takagi Yoshin ryu and Shinden Fudo ryu.

It seems that almost all the jujutsu you will find in the US are systems founded by a westerner who became reasonably proficient in a combination of one or more judo and/or jujutsu variants. The foundation principles of throwing and takedowns that I've seen bear striking resemblences, always in my experience and from recorded events very judo-esque. The intention seems to try bringing more "alive" and self-defense oriented training to what is judo at its core, or jujutsu school that adopted some of judo's technique adjustments.

The tendency seems to be very tight distancing between opponents, a lack of atemi in conjunction with grappling, takedowns that practically land you in breakfalls, necessary BJJ-style groundfighting followups, and little to no attention paid to the potentiality of weapons. Also very often, the systems include the addition of a western or Thai boxing methodology emphasizing hard, generally-targeted hits. Inevitably, confrontation is broken down into respective ranges: kicking, punching, grappling, standup, and ground. A great deal of time is spent drilling specific maneuvers, hitting pads, and doing cardio-vascular conditioning. These approaches greatly reduce the learning curve and quickly produce physically fit martial artists that can hit hard, pull off the general forms of throws/takedowns, and move into submissions.

The jujutsu I'm getting has some stark contrasts. Three vastly important aspects are 1) an assumption that weapons are/will/could come into play, namely that you are armed, and 2) a complete integration with what some would could "surgical" striking throughout the technique and 3) (perhaps unique to Hatsumi-den arts) an emphasis on controlling the spatial relationship between oneself and the opponent more than taking control of the opponent directly.

This third point might sound kind of esoteric or wishy washy, and sadly it's impossible for me to describe it much better than that. But the effect is a fusing of the ranges into a dynamic spectrum. Hatsumi's goal for us is to "reach zero." I have often interpreted this as synonomous with the JKD idea of formlessness, but it has lately come to mean literally always being the origin (0,0) on a grid, and you are aware of this spatial relationship with opponents on a more subtle level. I see this kind of manipulation and control of space occuring in Systema demonstrations. Essentially, there is no division of ranges per say, they blend together, and the same principles apply whether you are standing up, kneeling, on the ground, or somewhere in between.

But a little more down to earth, we will pound the opponent into place with attacks to arteries, organs, weak joints and bones, use flesh tears, body movements, kiai, and so on, and create space to get out a weapon or apply some grappling technique (and THEN pull out a weapon, and so on).

A direct comparison with a seoi nage (shoulder-throw) between a lot of Americanized jujutsu and a version from Takagi Yoshin ryu (as I've been taught):

In the first, you might close into the opponent and enter a tight body-body position keeping his arms covered so that he cannot hit you. Keeping your feet together and positioning yourself between his legs—turning your shoulder into him and sinking your weight such that has base is immobilized—you pop him up and bend forward, pulling his torso over your hips, using his arm for leverage. The opponent is forced over in a circle and probably lands in a side breakfall.

In an example of the latter, the opponent's arm is captured and turned over (I've had this facilitated by grabbing the tricep with a tearing motion while pressuring the nearby artery with the fingertips), locking the elbow out. You turn in, passing under the locked out arm, and step across the opponent's outside foot to create a deep, wide base (on either side of his outside foot). A rocking motion with the knees topples the opponent toward a nonexistent "third leg," your body simply forms an obstruction that he sort of trips over, and the locked out arm is leveraged to direct the fall in a straight drop onto the head/side of neck.

A fundamental difference is that while the former style of throwing utilizes a continuous force to move the opponent, the second puts the reciever in a free fall and puts things in the way or impulsively redirects it. This is very useful in putting the receiver in much more potentially damaging landings. The lack of a constant force gives him nothing to work with to recieve the fall safely—you are placed in a bad alignment and then dropped, often hit along the way.
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jlambvo
Hmm... was that too much? Have I killed another thread? Should I cut fat out of my post to make it more digestable?
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Bushi
Overall, it was a pretty good post. I was really interested in some ppls opinions on the effectiveness and connection with Koryu some Gendai have.

I have a little different take on the Whole Jujutsu subject. I train Jujutsu (Gendai) and I hold that Jujutsu is the Supple Art and as such should be adaptable. I add what works and still call it Jujutsu. It remains Japanese in essence. My philosphy goes as follows (and it may be mis-guided) there were over 700 ryu of Jujutsu at one time. Now I am sure they shared technique and even Philosphy, but I garrantee there were unique attributes to these systems and they are lost. Just like pankration, I think some ways of Jujutsu can be re-discovered if only in the same way they were once formed...by experimenting with what works. Even though I study a system that has its roots in a Koryu, we try to make the system as applicable as possible to the 21 century while maintaining the Traditions of old.
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asag2
Bushi

I am curious, I know this is a little off topic and I apologize. You say in your school you try to apply the jujitsu concepts of old into teh 21st century. I am considering taking up jujitsu and was interested to hear your insight as to whether you think the concepts of jujitsu are applicable to todays situations, such as adapted weapons and multiple attackers.
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Bushi
The key is to not get wrapped up in the Brazilian Jiu jitsu form of the supple art. PPL look at BJJ and say you will be vulnerable to weapons and Multiple attackers. This is true, but True Jujutsu is more than anything BJJ has in it. True all encompassing Jujutsu has every strike, parry block movement, counter of any good martial art. Remember the "Good stuff knows no home"..but it likes to sleep over in a few arts.

Koryu jujutsu dealt with these problems head on, Multiple attackers..please in a battlefield two Armies charging at each other "Brave Heart Style" you can't get more Multiple than that. And as far as weapons, please once again Jujutsu was designed for a Samurai losing or damaging his primary weapon in combat and having to do some quick hand to hand to deployhis alternate or disarm his advesary..
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