[bamboo]

Damn right its good!
You took the footwork from a martial art and are making it work for you under a different situation.

I have a question for you- If they are used to sparring and are dan rank holders and your at thier skill level as far as your own defense/offense capabilities- why bother with this school?

If your at thier level then why not find a place where your really challenged?

-bamboo

[The BadBoy]

^^^^^^^^ What he just said. You'll only ever be as good as your training partners.

[zefff]

Yes, they will feed on you and sap your skills...you will be assimilated back into the art as you lose your FMA. You need to keep the training up to keep the skill.

Get back into FMA now!...or is it really as hard to find Escrima/Arnis/Kali on the islands as they say?

[Triple T]

The most challenging situation one will face is trying to defeat an opponent who already knows everything you can do. The easiest way to know everything about another fighter is to train with them for some time. Therefore, the most challenging situation one will face is trying to defeat your oldest sparring partner.

Fuck looking for a new school. You're likely to waste time and money. "Skill" is nowhere near as objective as others here would like to pretend it is.

[zefff]

Originally Posted by Triple T

The most challenging situation one will face is trying to defeat an opponent who already knows everything you can do. The easiest way to know everything about another fighter is to train with them for some time. Therefore, the most challenging situation one will face is trying to defeat your oldest sparring partner.

Fuck looking for a new school. You're likely to waste time and money. "Skill" is nowhere near as objective as others here would like to pretend it is.

Thats your opinion but he already implied that his old partners offer minimal challenge. I didnt read anything where he mentioned something like,

"They knew all my tricks and were wise to my feints and combinations and were able to nulify any advantages my footwork patterns should give."

I agree that people who know your game are the hardest to spar with but they dont know his game now because he has been away expanding/contracting it.

Skill is not a solid state object but as much as it is about how it relates to others it is equally about control and knowledge of self. If you dont precisely know your own capability how can you quickly measure how you (or your skill) relate to a real foe?

As his condition adjusts to the Shotokan practice, Lakan Sampu will still have the knowledge of Kombatan but the physical and neurological condition he has will be erroded slowly over time. Thats my experience anyway as that is whats happened to me. I would never leave Escrima if I could find a good local class that has a balanced curriculum of all ranges of combat, armed and unarmed. FMA can make a very formidable fighter IMHO with or without rattan as it forces you to honestly experience your weakness so that know your limits.

...Hmmm, maybe it is ultimately up to the honesty and motivation of the student and teacher regardless of the art. The proof is in the pudding though and he pwned them from what I read.

Peace!

[bamboo]

i'll bet he still can't beat a robot.

[Triple T]

Originally Posted by zefff

Thats your opinion but he already implied that his old partners offer minimal challenge. I didnt read anything where he mentioned something like,

"They knew all my tricks and were wise to my feints and combinations and were able to nulify any advantages my footwork patterns should give."

Sure, but how much time have they had to get wise to the new tricks?

I agree that people who know your game are the hardest to spar with but they dont know his game now because he has been away expanding/contracting it.

Another case for staying so they can learn how to handle him. Once again, looking for a new school will probably be a waste of time and/or money.

Skill is not a solid state object but as much as it is about how it relates to others it is equally about control and knowledge of self. If you dont precisely know your own capability how can you quickly measure how you (or your skill) relate to a real foe?

This, of course, makes the assumption that this phenomenon of skill is relatable. Take an example of another skill: solving puzzles like Sudoku grids. How can you take two people and see who is "more skilled" at solving the puzzle? Time them, maybe. But is the solving of the puzzle really about speed? You can measure their accuracy, how many times they make a mistake and have to correct themselves, but what if neither makes any mistakes given their own parameters for how they solve the puzzle, assuming different methodologies? The same is true of fighting. Who is more skilled? The guy who can cover all ranges or the guy who doesn't need to because he forces one range where he dominates? Who's more skilled, the submission wrestler who can slap a submission from any position or the BJJer who is superb at transitioning to dominant positions where defending his subs is nearly impossible?

As his condition adjusts to the Shotokan practice, Lakan Sampu will still have the knowledge of Kombatan but the physical and neurological condition he has will be erroded slowly over time. Thats my experience anyway as that is whats happened to me.

Indeed, if he doesn't continue to practice his old skills, he will eventually lose them. But here's where the brilliance of Bruce Lee can shine: once you have mastered the basics of the art - for Sampu, footwork - you can apply them at any time during any other style's training. So, maybe the bulk of his classes at the Shotokan dojo will be the mechanics of Shotokan striking, but when he gets to sparring, he includes the Kombatan footwork seamlessly. Thus, he will never lose that footwork.

I would never leave Escrima if I could find a good local class that has a balanced curriculum of all ranges of combat, armed and unarmed. FMA can make a very formidable fighter IMHO with or without rattan as it forces you to honestly experience your weakness so that know your limits.

So does all honest training, as you hint at below. You should ask Bamboo about his Grove. But, as for the ranges et Al., see my comment above.

The proof is in the pudding though and he pwned them from what I read.

But, to be scientifically rigorous, what precisely is proved in the pudding?

[zefff]

You bin drinkin'?

1) Why should he stay so they can learn his tricks? He's not the one giving lessons!

2) Look, actual fighting isnt like Sudoku. Fighting is not a solitary affair. The aim is survival and so the skill can be clearly identified as survival skill. You know this already!

The only waste I see is the wasting away of skills he has already invested time, effort and money in, if he settles for what he has rather than seeking a higher level.

Train hard, fight easy. Train easy and the fight will be hard. Panta had a good line in his sig. which put it another way, something like "Cry in the dojo, laugh on the battlefield."

3) He cannot maintain peak skill in a (IMHO) superior method from practising inside and amoungst students of another art. If he feels he has mastered something but fails to continually disect and examine the technique then his understanding and execution of the technique will warp over time. Change is inevitable but it is up to ones own will power to steer the changes in a beneficial direction.

4) What was proved in the pudding was that his abilities were adequate for success in sparring against the top students in the school. I wonder how he does against the top students in his old Kombatan school?...Yes, I would like to know Lakan_Sampu mate!

[Triple T]

Originally Posted by zefff

You bin drinkin'?

Yes.

1) Why should he stay so they can learn his tricks? He's not the one giving lessons!

Because regardless of style, one is only pushed forward when circumstances necessitate adaptation. One of my prefered methods of causing this to happen is an analog to information tech "full disclosure" policies. If everyone knows and has access to the source code of, say, your virus scanner, then those who will try to find the weaknesses will be able to do so and when they do, you can alter the code to close those gaps. If, on the other hand, you didn't reveal your code to the public, it may be a very long time before weaknesses are identified and corrected. So, by giving his Shotokan classmates the ability to see how he fights, he is building a group of testers who will find his flaws more readily than unfamiliar students would.

2) Look, actual fighting isnt like Sudoku. Fighting is not a solitary affair. The aim is survival and so the skill can be clearly identified as survival skill. You know this already!

Even if I concede that the analogy is poor, the point remains valid. Given varying methodologies of achieving the same goal, how is "skill" objectified even a little? We like to compare arts and styles here, sometimes, but really ask yourself this: which is overall better, the Muay Thai roundhouse with its power or the Tae Kwon Do roundhouse with its speed? Most people here suck the nuts of MT, so the answer seems pretty obvious, which is why I asked you to ask yourself. After seeing tons of performers in the UFC et Al. grab roundhouses and use them to make takedowns or counter strikes, doesn't the ability to deftly retract your kick and prevent these counters appeal to you in the least? Now, think about 'skill.' Within Muay Thai, we can identify skilled fighters by how technically sound their strikes are, say. The same is true of fighters within TKD. But when we get the best MTer and the best TKDer together, we think that when the TKDer lands a lot of techniques but eventually gets KO'd that MT itself is better. Contrary, it means that MT is vulnerable to quick strikes from eccentric angles and that the particular TKDer needed a stronger jaw. What does this say of "skill?"

The only waste I see is the wasting away of skills he has already invested time, effort and money in, if he settles for what he has rather than seeking a higher level.

Train hard, fight easy. Train easy and the fight will be hard. Panta had a good line in his sig. which put it another way, something like "Cry in the dojo, laugh on the battlefield."

I already claimed that he wouldn't lose what he's already gained, and my methods, while off-beat, are far from training easy.

3) He cannot maintain peak skill in a (IMHO) superior method from practising inside and amoungst students of another art. If he feels he has mastered something but fails to continually disect and examine the technique then his understanding and execution of the technique will warp over time. Change is inevitable but it is up to ones own will power to steer the changes in a beneficial direction.

This is precisely why I brought up Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee's Wing Chun degraded over time, but his Jun Fan Gung Fu developed exceptionally well by all accounts. In the case of Lakan, yes perhaps he won't be fantastic at Kombatan or Shotokan. But his Lakan Sampu Do will grow by leaps and bounds.

4) What was proved in the pudding was that his abilities were adequate for success in sparring against the top students in the school. I wonder how he does against the top students in his old Kombatan school?...Yes, I would like to know Lakan_Sampu mate!

What it proves to me is that Shotokan sparring in that school placed emphasis in areas where a different kind of fighter could exploit weaknesses. When the Shotokaners learn to cope with Lakan's methods, Lakan himself will need to expand as a fighter in ways that, truthfully, cannot be taught by sensei of any school or coaches of any sport. This is why we advocate crosstraining, simplicity of technique and constant testing through combat.

[lakan_sampu]

Wow, didn't expect my post would be that interesting...

At this moment, I do not have the resources to find and study at "better" schools in my province. As far as I know, there aren't any FMA (my Kombatan school is in Manila, 3-4 hours away from my hometown) ones here, only 2 Karate (shotokan and shurin) and 1 TKD schools. The reason why I got back to Shotokan after 4 years was I want to still train in any art, and this school was the most familiar one for me, as I cannot afford any schools in my area too. The sad thing here is that this Shotokan school still trains for tournaments, ergo: too much time is used in perfecting Kata and less in sparring(which is also point system). The shodan holders whom I train currently are not used that much (IMO) in sparring. e.g. they are surprised with my counter-punching in kumite, which in Kombatan standards, are not good. No fight or combat simulations too. You get the idea...

One sparring session, I was so excited that instead of blocking it, I countered a ridgehand (is that haito?) with a punch to the bicep(tnx to my footwork). My sempai said his bicep ached for about 2 days. I was able to pull something from my Kombatan in that shotokan kumite, and I think they won't pull off any ridgehands against me anymore...

Indeed, if he doesn't continue to practice his old skills, he will eventually lose them. But here's where the brilliance of Bruce Lee can shine: once you have mastered the basics of the art - for Sampu, footwork - you can apply them at any time during any other style's training. So, maybe the bulk of his classes at the Shotokan dojo will be the mechanics of Shotokan striking, but when he gets to sparring, he includes the Kombatan footwork seamlessly. Thus, he will never lose that footwork.

It worked for me the other way around too, 3 years ago. My Kombatan instructors told me that I was easy to coach with my kickings, power and muscle memory in forms (anyo). Those two I picked up from Shotoka in highschool. Just the same, I'll be careful of losing fundamental FMA skills/concepts. Some blackbelts were asking me if I could give them some arnis lessons. I agreed, only it hasn't happened yet. They're also almost clueless of groundwork or takedown defense(given their orientation), so I think I'll share some also in the future.

What was proved in the pudding was that his abilities were adequate for success in sparring against the top students in the school. I wonder how he does against the top students in his old Kombatan school?...

So far, I've noticed that one of my basic disadvantages from them is my speed because I've gotten heavier. Also, is the orientation relative to the rules of kumite. But my size (I'm taller than most of them) and footwork gives me the edge at most times. For example, I don't defend against a jodan mawashi geri (fortunately telegraphed) by a sliding sidestep away and a parry. What I do is that I raise my forearm near my head, at the target of the kick, with a diagonal sidestep towards my opponent. They think its odd, but I only shrug my shoulders.
At the same time, I think its not fair to compare them with my Kombatan classmates (top students? of course I usually lose against them) because of the focus of the training, but still...

I already claimed that he wouldn't lose what he's already gained, and my methods, while off-beat, are far from training easy.

At the moment, I'm re-orienting myself to strike and block harder, as shotokan is such a style. I'll try not to lose my fluidity.

zefff, are you english?

salamat guys!