[Hengest]

setsu: It's kind of difficult for me to tell whether any of the styles in the Muye Dobo Tongji are distinctly Korean as my knowledge of Chinese arts isn't really up to the task! However, it's fair to say that large parts of the text were lifted from General Qi Jiguang's work, including, ironically, the part about the katana.

kyorgi: When reading about TKD history, you have to bear in mind that, originally, it was largely written by Korean nationalists and their side of the story has become the norm. In actuality, taek kyon's link with TKD is tenuous if not non-existant.

Taek kyon probably didn't exist in the three kingdoms period. It's only traceable back to the 17th century, but the nationalists conveniently ignored that fact and told everyone it was the striking art of the noble hwarang, and therefore TKD has a 2000-year history. In actual fact, taek kyon's beginnings were much like capoeira's. It was a kicking game played in back streets by thieves, muggers and all-round rough types. The nationalists ignored that part too.

TKD almost certainly originated from Japanese karate. Most of the major players in formulating what was to become TKD had served in the Japanese army or been educated in Japan and were yudansha in various karate ryuha. Choi Hong Hi always told the calligraphy teacher/taek kyon master story but, to my knowledge, he was never seen demonstrating taek kyon technique anywhere.

The schools in South Korea that came to teach TKD originally taught kong soo do ("karatedo") using kata from Shotokan, Goju Ryu and various other ryuha. There's a lot of controversy where the name "taekwondo" came from and who invented it, but it's likely that TKD was first called tae soo do and the name later changed to TKD because of its similarity in sound to "taek kyon". But even after the name changed, Japanese kata were still used in the dojang. Even when Choi started to develop his own patterns, they were heavily influenced by karate kata, Heian and Naihanchi in particular.

So, while TKD has become a distinct Korean art, its beginnings seem to have been Japanese and only go back about 50 years or so.

[BLACK PANTA]

If TKD is only about 50 years old then what was Tiger Kim trained in? He is knowns as like a TKD Grand Master.

[Kyorgi]

I think his name was Dragon Kim....but what do i know

[BLACK PANTA]

No it's Tiger Kim, one of his schools is not far from my work. I pass by it every day. And Kyorgi what is the kata called in your avtar, do you practice that kata?

[Gong||Jau]

Hengest, now that there's a Korean Martial Arts specific forum, maybe you should separate that post and sticky it, or something like it. That topic seems to arise fairly frequently, and it would be nice to have something like that in one place and easy to find.

[Kyorgi]

"I pass by it every day. And Kyorgi what is the kata called in your avtar, do you practice that kata?"

I have no idea what kata (or poomse) that is...maybe its ITF

the forms that I do are the TaeGueks.

[Hengest]

If TKD is only about 50 years old then what was Tiger Kim trained in? He is knowns as like a TKD Grand Master.

I don't know much about Tiger Kim, so I did a little digging. I checked out his website but, unfortunately it didn't give me much to work with.

http://www.tigerkim.com/Grandmaster2.htm

However, working with what we've got, I would surmise this much. It says that Kim started training in TKD when he was 6, so around 1942, and, as it mentions Hwang Kee awarding him a black belt through the Mudokkwan, I assume that this was where he started.

There's a couple of problems with this though. First of all, the name TKD wasn't used until around 1962 and that was by Duk-Sung Son at the Ch'ongdokwan. Hwang Kee and the Mudokkwan refused to use the name.

Secondly, the Mudokkwan wasn't founded until 1945. It is of course possible that Hwang Kee was teaching before this but, if he was, it certainly wasn't TKD. It would've been an art that he called hwasoodo, which he changed to t'ang soo do in the early '50s, an art firmly grounded in Japanese karate.

Of course, I'm not questioning Kim's qualifications, just the timing of them. He can't have been training in TKD since 1942 since the art didn't exist then, at least not as we know it today. Dojang would've been teaching various interpretations of kong soo do, so even if my assumption is wrong that he began training at the Mudokkwan, it seems to me his earliest training would've been in a form of karate.

Gong Sao, that's a good suggestion. I'll look into it!

[8LimbsScientist]

Wow! That's one hell of a dojang! A spa and sauna?!? And a boxing ring?

[BLACK PANTA]

Well Tiger Kim, may have trainded in TKD b4 it was named TKD? I dunno. Just because the art wasn't known to the western world until the 60's, it may still be possible that the art did exist b4 that no? I may not have been named but he may have learned just the Karate kicks that were developed on?

[setsu nin to]

There is one more thing that we shouldnt forget. General Choi was send to camp during the WWII and there in camp he started creating TKD. He leave camp in 1946. He was teaching martial arts in camp, but that was much more like to Karate than to what we know today as TKD.