[BLACK PANTA]

Originally Posted by Bloodybirds

Traditionally, one test of one's legitamacy is to be able to trace lineage in the Chinese martial arts. It is one trait that sets us apart but, unfortunately, sometimes does not allow us as an art to compete with tae kwon do, karate, etc. as a popular art because we become infatuated with everyone's true training, etc.

I dont mean to pick apart your post, but this stands out to me. It is very difficult to prove one's true lineage in the CMAs, unless it is in Taiji (Wudang/Chen/Yang) styles, Hung Ga, Ba Gua, Sanda. The other styles and even with the styles mentioned, a Master will not be able to provide solid proof of his/her lineage. Most Masters in China are heirs to family styles/training/teaching. If not for the good documentation and relative celebracy of Hwang Fei Hung, we wouldn't really have the proof of his lineage of Hung Ga. Also due to the poor documentation of CMA lineage/family trees, these so called "masters" and "Grand Masters" pop up everywhere. Almost anyone can provide a "Lineage" that can't be proved or dis-proved due to the poor documentations.
It's late but I had this on my mind, so please forgive if it makes no sence, but I'm sure my point was made clear.

[Bloodybirds]

Black Panta, usually good points. I am very fortunate in that two of my three teachers, Jeff Bolt and Leung Shum, their lineage is well documented and publicized, tracing back many years. On the other hand, my Shaolin master's lineage I can trace back 3 generations to the temple but that is it. Sooo...in modern America, I think you raise valid points. However, as I said, I am fortunate in that my teachers' lineages are well-documented in Hong Kong, Taiwan, and the mainland.

However, I will generally concede your point, and unfortunately that is part of the problem...lol. And, believe me, early or late, your point was quite clear and valid....lol.

[Wudangspirit]

Pei Pei,

Don't listen to the jibberish that B-birds? is throwing up. I know your teacher and I'm in the same sect as him under 14th Generation Wudang Taoist Priest, Master Yun Xiang Tseng (Chen). Master Chen is the only Wudang priest sanctioned by the Wudang Taoist Association to teach in the West.

Your teacher is a 15th Generation Taoist at Wudang and is Master Zhong's student. Master Zhong is highly respected at Wudang and if anyone questions his background don't hesitate there are plenty of people who can vouch for his validity. I've met him and spent some time with him in Wudang.

So as for B-Birds keep your comments and ego to yourself if you cannot back up your poison that you're spitting. As for Yuan I cannot vouch for but only to say that his Master Zhong is highly respected and I've met Yuan as well and know that Yuan has a lot of good training.

Wudangspirit

[Gazelle]

I really am sorry if by saying this i seem like an ignorant, insensitive so and so, but, seriously, if they can do the job, does the lineage really matter? As far as i can tell lineage such just be an initial pointer to how they might be, in the end, it should be how they are in practice that matters. For example, if you were a scientist with a father who had made certain discoveries in some field or other, then you might look to the son with a little curiosity and anticipation, but you wouldn't necesarily expect him to be a great scientist because his father was, it just might make you take a little more note of him. Moreover, his father being a great scientist, does not neccesarily make him a great one.

If you think about it, in some ways, if you rely on lineage so, you could compare it with racism, of sorts. Don't condem people if they don't know their lineage. Adopted children don't necesarily know there's, and as far as i know, that doesn't bias anything in anyway with whatever they do!

Again, apologies if this is a little bad.lol.

[bamboo]

Hi Gazelle,

The importance of lineage in the martial arts can be compared to graduating from a university. A phd knows where they did their studies and gains credentials and often pestige from the schools and professors under whom they have studied. It also speaks of the legitimacy of the degree.

Martial arts is the same. I can tell you all my teachers and their teachers from my days of aikido to my current subgrappling training.

If i were to open a school as a black belt knowing my lineage means someone can verify if i am indeed qualified to teach a specific style. If I had no teachers but was really good then I could amass a fight record to prove my legitimacy.

If a George Dillman trained person is writing posts and was in an arguement regarding striking with a Theodore Atlas trained boxer- I know from that the Atlas trained person is likely the better fighter and has a superiour understanding of striking while the dillman fighter is probably quite deluded.

See what I mean?

Personaly, I like to actually fight the person in question.

[Gazelle]

I can understand that, but, if there's nearly always question marks about the legitimacy of the lineage, then can you ever really trust what someone says?

Better to see them in action.

[Wilhelm von Wänkenstein]

In the above situation, you move on to option B - find out with your fists. A very enduring theme in the world of those who are earnest about what they do.

[bamboo]

I never trust what someone says and don't expect others to trust me.

Thats why its important to do some leg work. Make calls to the organization the person in question is part of, call his/her teacher, look at the actual certificates.

One thing to keep in mind is that just because a person is qualified to teach a system does not mean they can actually fight- Not all systems are equal and not all training methods work.

-bamboo

[Wilhelm von Wänkenstein]

Bear in mind also that, traditionally, paper certification was never common among Chinese styles. Many martial artists were illiterate and styles were transmitted, by and large, orally and by fiat accompli - you were a lineage-bearer when your teacher said you were. The best way to find out if a teacher is for real is to go and train a couple lessons with them to feel out their training methods and teaching style, not to mention their own personal ability. If they have that indefinable right vibe, then they're for real. If not, move on.