[themeecer]

MOD's NOTE: I've split this off from thread it began on as I liked the way themeecer and Scott's discussion was going and thought it deserved its own thread. Some of you may groan at the prospect of another Shaolin Do thread. Tough. This is an issue I believe deserves to be discussed in a mature fashion and this thread has begun in such a manner. Please keep it that way kids. As soon as this descends into mud flinging territory it gets locked up just like the last one.

Cheers,
Hengest.
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Originally Posted by superjim

I study ITF style Taekwon-Do under Dan King at Hwang's Taekwon-Do School of NH. This school is under Grand Master K. S. Hwang who was promoted to the rank of Grand Master by General Choi Hong Hi (1918-2002), the founder of ITF Taekwon-Do in 1997, his certificate number K-9-1 representes that he is the first Korean 9th degree Taekwon-Do Grand Master.

I am quite certain that everyone would like to see something similar for shaolin-do, but I know that I have never seen anything anywhere close. Obviously it would be more difficult and a fair bit longer then mine, but you cannot tell me that noone has had the sence to do this unless it is truly not possible.

I'm trying to be impartial but it is definately not easy in this case.

Fukien Shaolin Temple
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GM Su Kong Tai Djin 1849 - 1928 First person in our lineage to teach outside the temple
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GM Ie Chang Ming 1880 - 1976 Moved from China to Indonesia
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GM Sin Kwang The 1943 - ? Moved from Indonesia to the US and in the early 90s standardized the name of our system to Shaolin Do
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Master Robert Green 1952? - ?
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Me 1973 - Hopefully a long long time.

[EvilScott]

Hiang Kwang The == Sin Kwang The ?

[themeecer]

Nope they are brothers .. I had a cool chart made out showing him as well but it removed my spacing. Master Hiang learned from a couple other teachers as well .. and I had them listed. Don't quote me on this .. but I think that he got a lot of his bird forms from one of these colleagues of Great Grandmaster Ie.

[EvilScott]

Ya, I'm doing some of my own research...

Every single picture I've seen reminds me much more of Karate than of Kung Fu. Your system is thoroughly Japanese.

edit: This is due to a law in Indonesia banning Chinese systems of MA. So he made it look Japanese and changed the name...looking for more info...

edit: An enormous amount of anti-Chinese sentiment in Indonesia makes this ban a very real possibility - especially during Japanese occupation which fits in this timeline. I cannot find the law itself, but Ie Chang Ming was definately discriminated for being Chinese.

[themeecer]

EvilScott ... let me save you some time. The stuff you are looking for has already been posted in that Shaolin Do thread. Unless you have some kind of agenda for finding this all on your own..... if so, proceed.

[EvilScott]

I prefer to find things myself so I can cross check sources.

My biggest problem so far is that Shaolin was drastically changed when it was taught to Sin - it isn't really Shaolin anymore.

[themeecer]

Well that is something I can discuss with you. Granted that gets us off topic from the focus of this thread. There have been several good discussions of this on other boards. Do I think it could have changed from the time it left the Fukien temple till now? You're darn tootin I do. I've been at seminars and watch people totally change something they just learned. Sheer number of forms GM Su had to remember could have resulted in some being altered. This all being passed onto and carried by one man to Indonesia could have altered some. The art being in Indonesia could have altered it some. The fact that more than one teacher taught the The brothers could have altered some.

And I totally agree that some of the online videos of our forms have been altered. I have yet to see one that executes their forms the way I do, or anywhere close. Mine tends to be a whole lot more flowing.

[EvilScott]

If you follow information about Hiang Kwang The he makes no mention of Shaolin Do or altering an art to appease Indonesian authorities. His Indonesian trainers headed the Chung Yen Wu Shu Shao school, led by Ie Chang Ming. He trained under Ie Chang Ming but his style seems much more Chinese.

Both he and Sin traveled to Kentucky for education - Sin for Nuclear Physics, Hiang for Civil Engineering. Neither mentions the other sibling though.

Which is true?

[EvilScott]

Originally Posted by themeecer

I have yet to see one that executes their forms the way I do, or anywhere close. Mine tends to be a whole lot more flowing.

Differentiation in exection of forms is miles away from different governing principles. You can always tell the difference between a Kung Fu fighter and a Karate fighter - they follow different rules.

Shaolin Do follows Karate rules.

[themeecer]

Originally Posted by EvilScott

Differentiation in exection of forms is miles away from different governing principles. You can always tell the difference between a Kung Fu fighter and a Karate fighter - they follow different rules.

Shaolin Do follows Karate rules.

I strongly disagree here. My governing principles are much more kung fu than karate, especially the further into black belt I go.

If you follow information about Hiang Kwang The he makes no mention of Shaolin Do or altering an art to appease Indonesian authorities. His Indonesian trainers headed the Chung Yen Wu Shu Shao school, led by Ie Chang Ming. He trained under Ie Chang Ming but his style seems much more Chinese.

The brothers had a falling out. Master Hiang The changed several of the trappings of the art and claimed it was a total separate art. His style can't be 'more Chinese' than ours .. it is the same exact art.