[Stazzy]

Originally Posted by Stazzy

I believe the Panther style was created much before the East was ever introduced to the lion. I'm not positive on that, but I'm pretty sure the leopard was originally created as a middle ground between a tiger's incredible clawing power and a snake's speed and precision. Check with Bloodybirds on the last part.

I just reread what I wrote, and I have no idea where I got panther from. I think, or at least I hope, I was trying to type Leopard. How the heck could I get something like that wrong?! Man, I've been hit by leopard paw before. Sorry about the mix-up.

[setsu nin to]

Here is one of my old posts, maybe it help.

Wu Qin Xi is Five Animal Play and it come by legend from Dharma. These Five Animal Plays include Bear, Crane, Tiger, Ape and Deer. After there were developed much more styles based on different animals, same as Wu Xing Quan.
Wu Xing Quan is Five style combat techniques and includes Crane, Dragon, Snake, Tiger and Leopard.
There are also many others animal styles like Mantis style, Cock style, Eagle style, Swallow style, Dog style, Turtle style, Horse style, Wolf style, Lion style, Elephant style, Rabbit style,
Sometimes different styles or forms use name of same animal so you may find Eagle Claw, Golden Eagle, White Crane, Black Crane...
Most often animal styles are formed in groups, so you may find five animal styles, ten animal styles, 12 animal styles...

[Bloodybirds]

Setsu, some of those animals you mentioned are, in fact, legends and not real fighting styles and in some cases tied to the Chinese zodiac. Normally, one will hear 12 animals of Shaolin, 10 animals of Shaolin, or five animals that later developed into choy li fut and derivatives therein. But there is no real rabbit style, et al. per se. These are symbolic and in some ways part of Chinese superstition stories or magic lessons.

[Tease T Tickle]

Originally Posted by Bloodybirds

Setsu, some of those animals you mentioned are, in fact, legends and not real fighting styles and in some cases tied to the Chinese zodiac. Normally, one will hear 12 animals of Shaolin, 10 animals of Shaolin, or five animals that later developed into choy li fut and derivatives therein. But there is no real rabbit style, et al. per se. These are symbolic and in some ways part of Chinese superstition stories or magic lessons.

The problem herein lies, however, that at some point in time one of these animals may have been used in a lineage's teaching and perhaps only remained through history as 'legend.' When we have hundreds of lineages with clear pedigrees going back centuries, there is obviously tons of room for other pedigrees and lineages that weren't fortunate enough to survive. For instance, the tale regarding Bodhidharma bringing the martial arts to China may or may not be true. If there were native styles, they could have incorporated these 'unreal' styles and we would never know. That is precisely why I dislike discussions about the animal styles because, in a sense, it's missing the real story - the lineage of instruction.

[Bloodybirds]

Very relevant point Tease....interesting that Chinese systems always emphasize traceable lineage over other styles. One must be able to trace back a few generations. However, some animal styles really are individual forms, or techniques, not complete styles. Drunkard boxing exists as a form in many northern styles, and there is some debate on whether it is a complete style or not....then we get into the discussion of what defines a complete style and what does not? That too may be open to interpretation.

[Tatsukage]

Wow. Thanks for all the helpful info. I didn't expect to learn as much as I did. I wish that I could have added more input, but it seems that you have most of it covered.

[Hengest]

While we're on this subject, a few months ago in (I think) Black Belt magazine, there was an article about bat style kung fu. Now, after reading it, I was just about ready to write it off as BS, since it made no reference to a Chinese name for the style (or, if I recall correctly, no Chinese terms at all!). However, has Bloodbirds or anyone else heard of it? If not it's probably safe to say I can mark it down as bollocks.

[Tease T Tickle]

Originally Posted by Hengest

While we're on this subject, a few months ago in (I think) Black Belt magazine, there was an article about bat style kung fu. Now, after reading it, I was just about ready to write it off as BS, since it made no reference to a Chinese name for the style (or, if I recall correctly, no Chinese terms at all!). However, has Bloodbirds or anyone else heard of it? If not it's probably safe to say I can mark it down as bollocks.

I ran a quick internet search and it seems the common source of the recent discussion on various sites regarding a possible "Bat style kung fu" comes from the April 2006 issue of Inside Kung Fu. Although, there was also some mention of a few obscure Hong Kong films that utilized a bat style exponent, most notably some film I never heard of directed by Sammo Hung (Kung Fu Cult Master?).

I also found a link to a website full of information for the Ng family lineage of TCMedicine and martial arts. http://www.ngfamilystyle.com/index.html
Goodness knows whether or not it's legit, as most of the locations named on the site are in Kentucky, not Fujien provence or somesuch. Since my knowledge of Chinese arts are basic at best, I'll leave that analysis to Michael, Setsu, Hengest or Wankenstein if he still comes around.

Michael, you mentioned the issue of when we should consider a system a full style in its own right or not. That's a very good question, I feel, and I think it might warrant its own thread in another subforum here. With the proliferation of Vale Tudo, Jeet Kune Do, MMA/NHB, et Al. schools, it seems there are a good deal of non-Chinese 'styles' that clearly incorporate other 'styles,' necessitating us to define what makes a style a style.

[Hengest]

Originally Posted by Tease T Tickle

I ran a quick internet search and it seems the common source of the recent discussion on various sites regarding a possible "Bat style kung fu" comes from the April 2006 issue of Inside Kung Fu. Although, there was also some mention of a few obscure Hong Kong films that utilized a bat style exponent, most notably some film I never heard of directed by Sammo Hung (Kung Fu Cult Master?).

Thanks Tease. That may actually be the article I was thinking of. I remember it being in a US magazine, and seeing as Black Belt and Inside Kung Fu are the only two US magazines I buy, it has to be one of the two.

[Bloodybirds]

To my knowledge, there is no bat style in Chinese kung fu, though if there was I would sure like to employ their sonar technique...LOL. Jeez, like when Five Deadly Venoms came out years ago and I was just a beginner and asked one of my masters if centipede was really that deadly...LOL....as far as what constitutes a style, remember according to Bruce Lee JKD was never meant to be a style but rather the antithesis of one! But, and I agree with Tease here, I am very interested in determining, not only in Chinese arts but in others, like the ryu systems of Okinawan karate, when a martial arts group of techniques and forms becomes generally recognized as a style?! My understanding is technique, form, system, and then at high level a style. For instance, like I stated before, there are 12 systems of northern preying mantis, 4 major systems of pek kar monkey, etc.

Would be an interesting discussion.