[Bloodybirds]

A couple of points about MA Bu stance. First, per Black Panta, please check with your teacher and your style as Northern and Southern horse stances may be different. A white crane horse stance (southern) may have the knees pointed in slightly while the northern usually does have the feet straight and knees bent at a 90% angle with the butt parallel to the ground. One way to test how deep one should go is to take a staff and place it on the legs....if it stays on then it is deep enough. However, practically, remember that fighting entails appropriate movement sooo.....the horse of course may be shallower in this instance.

A couple of other comments...one way to check the proper width of the legs in relation to the shoulders is easy...you should be able to move from any other stance to and from the Ma Bu if the Ma Bu is proper without adjustment. Whether a cat, arrow, crane, or other stance, even snake creeps down, all should be able to seamlessly move into the horse stance. If not, the proper spacing should be checked.

Per both Panta and Wushu, the essential thing is proper alignment for the individual. One other critical element: the proper alignment re upper back to buttocks. The whole back and butt should be ideally straight and in line as to not cause undue stress to the spine. The center should be from the sphinter and the sphinter to the middle of the head should be straight. This will prevent lower back issues.

A good teacher will ensure this stance is proper as all other stances and movement in most kung fu and internal arts resound from this stance. A good horse stance reflects good kung fu and one cannot have a good skill without it.

This is one long-time practitioner's opinion. By the way, Happy New Year to all!!!

[BLACK PANTA]

bloodybirds, your points are very valid, and correct. My post was not to say what is proper technique. My post was to inform Wushu that he shouldn't be so haste to give advice if he's not sure.
I have bad knees and my Sifu allowed me to practice my stances with that in mind. One must learn the basics, however it is in my experience that you dont have to stay there (if you know what I mean). The beauty of KF and the beauty of the tradition of KF (all styles) is that it is very easy to conform to the practitioner.

[Bloodybirds]

Black Panta, after major ACL surgery, shoulder surgery, bulging disks in lower back, spinal stenosis in two neck vertebrae, I still love this stuff!!! But I am enjoying rooting more than flying these days...lol. I find that when I do Shaolin stances I am fine as long as I keep moving. In taiji, sometimes the stances hurt more, especially with upper body, because of the slowness and concentrated stuff in the present. I agree with you totally on your comments....kung fu and taiji's ability to allow each one of us to adapt to our personal conditions and external conditions as they arise is what makes it so cool.....besides, as you know, after a while we are a reflection of our teachers but still take the art to a personal level to fit our own unique abilities.

I use to be able to sit in proper horse stance for 30 minutes to an hour with no problem. These days, that is unnecessary. As one of my teachers says, after 15-20 years, one should stop training and start practicing-translation, stop doing all the hundreds of kicks, etc. and practice the application, the breathing, and understand the naturalness of the movements, not the techniques anymore. Plenty of technicians get their butts kicked and that alone does not ensure long life or a unbroken body....laughing. Both gravity and age are hell!!! Happy New Year to you!!!

[Bloodybirds]

Meathead, I hope this discussion helped!!! Do what is proper, comfortable, and conforming to your own body's unique abilities, and above all have the assistance of a qualified master to ensure appropriate stances. Ma Bu initially is very painful but remember, it is the center of the kung fu universe!!! Also, I have seen powerful weightlifters who can squat hundreds of pounds melt down after 5-10 minutes of sitting in proper horse stance. You are not training external muscles but internal power. Hope all of this helped. The clearest way to proper technique is to say one of the two best three word phrases in the English language, I don't know!!! (I love you is the first one, but may not be applicable here.....laughing!!!)

[BLACK PANTA]

Great point BB, the horse stance really takes a lot of mental strength as well as physical. I would say more mental than physical.

On the point of us reflecting our teachers (Sifus). I've learnt that I represent him when he's not here. In KF that is. If I spew bullshit, even though that bullshit came from me, the view is that I learned it from my Sifu. Here and anywhere you go in the Marial world, you are a representative of your school and Sifu. When you train, perform (if that's what you do) and even when you speak. I think this is an important lesson to learn.
Keep this in mind when talking and posting.

[Bloodybirds]

Amen, Black Panta....great point. One thing one of my teachers told me once is that, if he has done his job correctly, if you add together the variable skills of the instructors under the master, they should add up as a whole to the reflection of the skill of the master. Each of us takes the piece we need and run with it. That is why, in our art, the master desires that the disciples under him all get along as much as possible and share!!! Even at competitions, the judges should be able to tell who your teacher is without ever asking who you trained under, if he/she is legit. I am a composite of all three of my teachers, then forming my own sculpture as I take those skills to make my own destiny. Happy New Year.

[WushuPadawan001]

?Mabu? and ?comfortable? are not words I often hear together lol! Then again, that?s just the difference between a low mabu and a high mabu.

Panta, you have your opinion about stance training, I have mine. Meathead asked about proper mabu form, not about how to do mabu with bad knees, even though I did add that stuff about Wushu Knee lol.

Please understand that I am careful when giving advice, which is why I consulted Shaolin Longfist Kung Fu by Dr. Yang Jing Ming, Kung Fu Elements by Shou-Yu Liang and Wen-Ching Wu, and an article on Wushu Knee Syndrome from Inside Kung Fu Magazine by Nick Gracenin and Shane Kachur before posting a reply. According to the article on Wushu Knee Syndrome, knee problems are more likely to occur when a Wushu practitioner does not hold his stance properly, for instance letting the feet drift out of a parallel position in fu hu bu and mabu, or pointing the foot and knee in different directions as in sheun gi bu and tun bu.

I believe that a person is more likely to develop knee problems by NOT holding his/her feet parallel.

[Bloodybirds]

One other point I would like to emphasize on Ma Bu that Wushu, my junior classmate, may disagree with but might be interesting. Due to the more high impact leaps, etc. of modern Wushu, typically, there might be a more deleterious affect upon the knees due to the sudden shock from going from a high airborne technique to landing into a perfect Ma Bu. The sudden shock may have implications in the long term. One thing I have always asked and puzzled over with my current teacher (and one of Wushu's two masters) is how to root in any good stance while moving?! An interesting quandry, especially if the previous movement was a high one. This could cause a tendency to float in stances, as well as misalignment. I have all three resources Wushu has referred, plus another master and years of experience. Bottom line, the proper positioning is key....also, not slacking off from the proper basics after a few years. No matter how long one is experienced in the art, the basics are always mandatory. Jackie and Jet may do fantastic things, but if you pay close attention, their stance work is still impeccable from years of basics. Similarly, most great masters will still emphasize proper stance work.

Wushu, Nbotary, and I will have the misfortune of working out on a carpeted gym at the school. In my other two schools, it was either outside on the grass/concrete, or on a wooden floor in NYC. Those are much more amenable to healthy joints than carpet. In the school here, one must not only have the proper stance and footwork, but account for more sudden stopping and less ability to rotate quickly with hip, knee, and waist in alignment. This can be tough for awhile and then train outside where things do not grab hold. Just another observation.

[WushuPadawan001]

Some of the landings in Wushu are pretty high impact. But for the most part, so long as the landing is correct, injury can be avoided. It?s also good not to overdo a technique. That is, do 10 reps of Wi Shain Fon Twe landing in mabu, switch sides, and then be done with that technique. When a practitioner does a high impact technique like Wi Shain Fon Twe it is more likely that injury will occur, so it?s necessary to pace oneself. On the other hand, techniques like Ti Twe, Whye Bie, and Nei Bei can be done over and over without a high risk of injury.

Really the best thing to do is to take one?s time and do a technique right. After all, it?s not how much someone practices, but how he practices.

[BLACK PANTA]

Originally Posted by WushuPadawan001

Panta, you have your opinion about stance training, I have mine. Meathead asked about proper mabu form, not about how to do mabu with bad knees, even though I did add that stuff about Wushu Knee lol.

Like my buddy Kris (Tease) likes to say. Opinions are like asses, everyone has one and they all stink. I will just say this man, whenever you post something, post it with the thought that your Sifu is going to be reading it.