[vladimir]

Do you consider if so, why and if not, why. After reading a post by another member of this board I started a discussion among several friends most of whom considered firearms to not be part of Martial Arts, so I wanted to see what people on this board thought and their reasons for it.

[BLACK PANTA]

I said no because I dont see firing a gun as an art form. there's nothing beautiful and harmonious about firing a gun. I would call it combat training, but not a martial art.

Yes it is, cause its not just point and shoot. You have tactics, philosophy, principles, etc and lets not forget that shooting is an art for real. Just ask any sniper. Most people dont think of the things that go into firing a bullet and hitting what you want, where you want. Even experienced hunters think its nothin more than linin up the sight posts. Hell, the majority of the population couldnt hit anything.

The harmonious thing about shooting is becoming "one" with your wweapon of choice and achieving the level that you know you can take out anything with it, and not just by chance either.

But yeah, any G-dawg from the ghetto cheese place in LA can pull a trigger, but its how an individual pursues it and takes it that makes it a MA or not. Bow and Arrow is part of japanese MA if you think about it, and back in that time period, was probably looked at the same way as guns today, though Archery's an art as well.

[asag2]

I am going to have to agree with PANTA. I do not feel that firing a gun or the training of it is an art form.

On top of that, as impressed as i am with the skill of snipers, I would not consider what they do a martial art because for the most part their victims do not even have a chance to defend themselves.

Maybe if it was like dueling or something where both people were on equal plains then I can maybe see it (in some form).

[bamboo]

Martial = war

The samurai that used arquebus where practicing martial arts, so why would using an updated version of the same weapon not be?

Firing a weapon involves timing, extreme pressure response, keeping a strong mental state of mind, physical awareness and in the end it about taking a life. I'm not sure how you get much more martial.

I look at it as iaido of the modern western world.

I vote yes.

-bamboo

[mktexan]

Originally Posted by angryrocker4

Yes it is, cause its not just point and shoot. You have tactics, philosophy, principles, etc and lets not forget that shooting is an art for real. Just ask any sniper. Most people dont think of the things that go into firing a bullet and hitting what you want, where you want. Even experienced hunters think its nothin more than linin up the sight posts. Hell, the majority of the population couldnt hit anything.

The harmonious thing about shooting is becoming "one" with your wweapon of choice and achieving the level that you know you can take out anything with it, and not just by chance either.

But yeah, any G-dawg from the ghetto cheese place in LA can pull a trigger, but its how an individual pursues it and takes it that makes it a MA or not. Bow and Arrow is part of japanese MA if you think about it, and back in that time period, was probably looked at the same way as guns today, though Archery's an art as well.

I would tend to agree with this. There is priciple, tactics and philosophy invloved in firing weapons. i voted no, but on second thoughts, it may be able to be considered a martial art. intersting question. I remember in Basic Training the extreeme emphasis on procedure of firing the M-16. Breath controll, trigger squeeze, sight pictures, steady position. so i guess you really can call weapons training a martial art, its just an odd thought because its not how we are used to looking at it.

[zefff]

I would agree with Angryrocker and Bamboo.

We should remember that it is a simple tool the same as a fist is also a tool that we employ. The 'art' is in the mind and action. IMHO there is no beauty that can be appreciated in martial art application. The beauty is only there to see when the consequences are removed from the technique.

Even precision artillery fire, bombing from aircraft and things like bomb disposal are martial arts IMO.

[dscott]

I agree with Panta. It's combat training, not a martial art.

[BLACK PANTA]

correct me if I'm wrong but didn't some Samurai concider it a dis-honour to use firearms?

[Tease T Tickle]

Originally Posted by BLACK PANTA

correct me if I'm wrong but didn't some Samurai concider it a dis-honour to use firearms?

Sure, and some considered it dishonorable to not have a top knot, but that doesn't mean that barbers are the arch-nemesis of martial artists.

While SOME arts are beautiful and harmonious, while SOME arts maintain a solid tradition and code, not all do. For instance, Tae Kwon Do might look good and theoretically prepares you to fight, but there's no tradition or code: it's gearing you up for a point-sparring tournament. Wing Chun has a strong tradition and code (especially student loyalty) to it, but it certainly doesn't look beautiful to one-inch punch somebody in the ribs. And then we have BJJ which has neither. The deciding factor of whether or not X is a martial art is whether or not it applies to combat, not its aesthetic appeal or traditional roots.

Going to a firing range and shooting at a target would not be considered martial training any more than, say, wailing on a heavy bag. Just because you can put knuckles to bag doesn't mean you're a boxer, and likewise just because you can pull a trigger doesn't make you a gun artist. However, if somebody went to a tactical firearms class and studied how to conceal and carry their weapon, how to draw their weapon, how to precisely use their weapon in a myriad of situations and how to maintain their weapon, then there's no difference between "gun fu" and kendo. Throw in some ethical standards via the military or law enforcement (the most likely candidates for such training, and the most qualified instructors) and you got yourself a full fledged "art," even by your implicit definition of the term.

So, yes, firearms training is a martial art if it is carried out as such.