[Gazelle]

'The martial way' is simply a phrase that has no set definition; therefore they have not even any agreed meaning to dampen a persons individual interpritation. Therefore, no one can become close to being wrong, technically.

My take on it, i think is that one does not need to train in a martial art to live this 'way', but to have the ideal basic 'mentality' that i think a true martial artist has.

I think it is associated with awareness, the quest of refinement (apologies for the vagueness of this), patience, the ability to do what needs to be done without complaint or hinderance, to discover and follow your own 'code of life' (after all, a martial artist, i think is a person first and a soldier second, if at all, and, even a soldier must follow his/her own guide), but not just any code of life, one that is associated with finding their balance between life and death, killing and not, (perhaps, if it was further back i would say something about being a warrior in there, if one was to put it more inconjunction with martial arts, but, i think that could be sufficiently explained away simply by saying that someone 'lives the martial way' and 'is a warrior/martial artist/soldier/whatever appropriate (i have no time to linger on this point)' - 'warrior' being used in a fighting sense - but i think now, that has faded out of neccesity now at any rate).

All in all, 'martial way' is simply personal quest to better themselves. But note, at least in my view this is not the 'single way'. One can go on a personal quest to give themselves higher standing in things (cash, power, whatever), that is not to me living the martial way, this is not a 'quest of refinement' in the sense i am meaning it.

Of course, that is in my little world, from my little perspective. If you account for everyone's perspective, then technically, everyone is most probably living every 'way' imaginable, and therefore living a 'single way', as you stated, Zefff. But, i think one should judge the world through your own eyes, not others, but using others to better clarify and refine your own.

[Triple T]

Originally Posted by zefff

TBH I dont see any 'martial way'. There is only one way - The way. Its the same if you are a baker or a soldier. Both have successes and failures in their practice and both live and die.

perhaps, but rare is the baker who dies baking. The idea is also that the perfection of one's "art" does not always relate to the perfection of one's self. I can be a perfect baker and still be a completely miserable jackass. However, certain 'arts' necessitate the development of the self in a way that other 'arts' do not. Mxing dough and throwing it in the oven may take a little bit of knowledge and skill, it does not require discipline, respectfulness, compassion, honesty or any other trait that "the way" may develop,

Also, 'soldier' is not a black and white thing. What is one soldiers battlefield is the holiday vacation of another? And why cant the baker be a soldier?

I don't know about you, but soldier is pretty black and white. It's a professional killer who operates for reasons other than money.

[nbotary]

Zefff - the baker can be a soldier. Personally, I think all the people who died on 911 were soldiers. You don't have to be in the military to serve your country and be considered a patriot. Everyone of those men, women and children gave their lives to their country - albiet not by choice and not through war. If the baker overhears a conversation between two men to commit an act of terrorism, he calls it in and saves just one life, he's a soldier in my eyes.

We are all inherently taught as children all of life's bitter lessons and how to resolve them at the age of 6 or when we first enter kindergarten (grammer or elementary school for our foreign friends). Seriously, if you think about it, you're taught manners, you're taught to share, you're taught to rules and you learn how to socialize with others. It's what you do with those lessons and how you cultivate your experiences as an adult that should help to shape your moral beliefs and provide you with the sense of right and wrong in society. As you begin to fully understand the difference between right and wrong, you will notice that if you apply the "martial way" to the lessons you've been taught, you will see that they are somewhat parallel.

[bamboo]

At the risk of sounding very unpopular, I simply cannot see the victims of the "9/11" attacks as soldiers, heroes or patriots. They were unsuspecting business people and bystanders killed by anti-american aggressors.

That is all.

I'm sorry to those that suffered a loss for this terrible incident, one that replays everyday in our world, but lets not start or continue to label them postmortum for actions and deeds they were not involved in.

bamboo (awaiting the flames)

[Gazelle]

Originally Posted by bamboo

At the risk of sounding very unpopular, I simply cannot see the victims of the "9/11" attacks as soldiers, heroes or patriots. They were unsuspecting business people and bystanders killed by anti-american aggressors.

That is all.

I'm sorry to those that suffered a loss for this terrible incident, one that replays everyday in our world, but lets not start or continue to label them postmortum for actions and deeds they were not involved in.

bamboo (awaiting the flames)

I agree.

They did not put their life on the line willingly for the US, but were forced into it. Now some that died might well have been willing to sacrifice that for their country, but, that did not show from this. Even if an individual puts their life on the line for an individual it does not imply that they are patriots, but people with an inclination to help people, for what ever reason, if any.

Also, i think you can be a patriot and not a soldier, and vice versa. Just because you are a soldier, it does not mean that you are so strongly attached to your coutry that you are willing to die for it, it might be that they do it just because it seems respectful/to get the recognition, and, maybe because they like/seek the heat of battle. And, you can be a patriot and never have any training to fight, nor ever do, and, to be a soldier, you need to have done at least one of those, i think as a concept, and, speaking as a profession, you get the training at any rate (apart from those that were just dumped into a war zone, which fulfils what i stated previously), and you put on performances/carry out tasks/keep up training as a job (that is the key ingredient, they may not be doing it for any reason other than money, for their own person, or whatever reason).

[nbotary]

Bamboo and Gazelle - I see and respect both of your points of view. However, I think it's safe to say that we are going to agree to disagree on this and call it at that.

[zefff]

Its interesting that we all have differing meanings for the same simple words we use. I think I understand what some of you are saying but have to disagree with a lot because of the definitions and connotations that have sent peoples mind off on tangents.

Gazelle,

I had to re-read but I think I understand what you are saying. I dont know anything about 'the way' but I would imagine it is not a personal quest to better oneself, but more a way of finding harmony with the universe, humbling oneself and knowing your place - which is probably everywhere so not neccessarily a bad thing! So it might be a way of losing 'yourself' rather than finding if you know what I mean.

Des,

You seem to be straying from your usual stance - maybe its just the way I read it?

The baker who does not recieve spiritual insight from his art is not the 'master baker' at all IMHO. Maybe you've underestimated the fanaticism of the master baker. Death and life is the highest art of the soldier but gastronomy can be life and death too. Maybe we elevate the warrior because we value life over other necessities but food gives life as well as joy.

"...discipline, respectfulness, compassion, honesty or any other trait that "the way" may develop."

The master baker will have these traits IMO. We can say it is impossible for an everyday baker to recieve these gifts but how many everyday soldiers have the spiritual gifts themselves? The ideal we have in our heads is only us giving value to the idea of a 'martial way'. IMHO it is not special and it shouldnt be worth more than another study.

NBotary,

Anyone can be a soldier at any time but that is different to following the soldiers way (maybe). Although understandable, when you talk about the 911 victims it smacks of propaganda. They didnt give their lives, their lives were taken so they are murder victims IMHO. I can see how calling them soldiers might honour them though. I agree with your mentioning of parallels though. The way is an intrinsicly, intertwined phenomenon IMHO.

I dont know really. I dont read, I just talk to people who've done the reading for me! I think I need to pay Sifu a visit!

peace

[Gazelle]

For once, i will leave you're comments on other peoples veiws that have been posted for others to answer, at least at the moment.

As for what you mention of mine, Zeff...i think you are possibly right, in the sense that maybe my thoughts are closer to that than how i phrased it. However, i should point out, just because you are on a personal quest, it doesn't mean it's to find yourself. And, in some ways, i think maybe to loose yourself is to find it, and vice versa.

lol. Apologies, i don't wish to bring this thread off track, but, i've just realised, we all apparently joined in 1970!lol. That would have certainly been a feat for me, and a few others!

And, NB, well, it's rather apparent that we disagree, i think we can agree on that quite safely, however, i will in accordance agree to let it be. Yep, definately too much of a mathematician!lol

[zefff]

Fair do's!

[Triple T]

Originally Posted by zefff

Des,

You seem to be straying from your usual stance - maybe its just the way I read it?...

I see the "stray" and I will explain it. With an understanding of the Tao (to make sure nobody gets caught up on the word 'way'), we can see it in every action that every person does. So, a baker can follow the Tao, in fact the baker has no choice but to follow the Tao to some degree or another. (NOTE: Others may disagree with my assessment of the Tao, I see it much like the dharma, the manner of all things as they are). That being said, we are not discussing the Tao, we're discussing the martial way.

Not everything within the experiential world is like everything else. This would normally be written off as a delusion, but let's not get wrapped up in my typical headtrips. If I step into a kitchen, seeking to master the craft of baking (just to follow the current example), all I need to do is understand the processes that create breads, cakes, muffins, pastries and other baked goods. Luckily, these are limited to a small handful of chemical and physical reactions: leavening; the creation of gluten; the structural elements produced by proteins. fats and sugars; the action of heat. You can read that in a book. Then, through experience, gather 'the feel' for when a dough is right. Baking is formulaic, it's driven by scientific principles and all it takes to make the best bread you've ever tasted is an appreciation for good ingredients and respect for proportions. When I walk back out of that kitchen, I have not changed.

Killing somebody, surviving a life-or-death struggle, even just practicing to fight changes you deeply. When I walk into a dojo, seeking to master the art of combat, there is no science. While experience will grant a "feel" for spacing and timing, the principles that guide how they are used can barely be communicated. We can talk until we're blue in the face about Aikidoka accepting energy, Wing Chun exponents utilizing the center line theory or even Muay Thai deadleggings but until it is experienced, it is not known. How hot do you need an oven? For fine-crumb cakes and pastries 325, for heartier breads 425 (all degrees F). This is known without even looking at a kitchen: it's in every cookbook. How hard do you need to kick to deadleg? How far do you need to extend their left arm towards their right to trap? You cannot be told. Through the experience, the stress, the excitement, the fear, the pain, the realization that you are capable of destruction, the coming-to-grips of one's own mortality: combat changes you forever.