[setsu nin to]

I vould just like to say that some people have wrong view on European martial arts as weak and not efficant. Also many people judge European martial arts from what they saw on old muvies...
Just to say that for example, Libera Boxing (Italy) used fists, elbows, legs, knees, head and even back and thighs were used in some techniques to attack anemy. Also they wear light boots pointed on the top, so kicks could couse death.

[Hengest]

I vould just like to say that some people have wrong view on European martial arts as weak and not efficant. Also many people judge European martial arts from what they saw on old muvies...

I couldn't agree more setsu. Euro martial arts don't get the respect they deserve from the mainstream martial arts community. There are European styles just as detailed, and just as complete, as many asian styles but, for some reason, start talking about them with many martial artists and you'll get laughed at.

And you're right in that old movies have done Euro martial arts a disservice. I think Hollywood is gradually setting the record straight though. In a few recent movies I've seen some well-handled Euro system fight scenes. The most recent version of the Count of Monte Cristo had some excellent fencing scenes in it and Gangs of New York, while set in the US, made good use in one or two scenes of bata and English/Irish pugilism.

BTW, what's Libera boxing? I've not heard of that. Got any more info?

[setsu nin to]

"Gangs of New York" I like that muvie, there are some realy exelent scenes of fighting and weapons.

Actualy I become realy interested in European martial arts (not just sword arts) after discousion "Japanese sword art vs European sword art" that you and me had, I have to admit that I founded realy interesting things, I am totaly fascinated with some s simple and efficant techniques that I found.

Well about Libera boxing, sorry but I dont know much. What I know is that it was found in Italy in 18 century, it was developed from Boxing schools from Venezia, Verona, Siena... guard is much diferent than english Boxing. Left hand is infront of you ready to block, something like when you whatch on your clock, its paralel with your neck or forhead. Right hand, well just think that you have hearth on your right side, well right fist would be than on your hearth.
Here is something powerfull, Libera boxing have specific techniques called "Al pettp pel viso", its blocking and attacking in same time with take down with your legs. I like it!
So acording to that we can conclude that bilance war realy important to them, and that you could defided with these techniques much bigger opponents.

[UK Scrapper]

Boxing in its bare knuckle era was a pretty complete martial art as it incorporated throws into its arsenal of techniques. Its only when gloves were introduced that throws were removed. I would have to say that boxing in its purest form is the original English art of self defense.

[Hengest]

setsu: Libera boxing sounds intriguing. I'll see if I can find out more.

UK Scrapper: That's a good point mate. When James Figg fought Ned Sutton in 1727 (a three-round sword/boxing/staff bout), he beat Sutton in the boxing round not by KO but by choking him into submission!

Even when the Broughton Rules were introduced, they only restricted hitting a downed opponent and grabbing below the waist in some circumstances. Everything else was perfectly legal!

[Wilhelm von Wankenstein]

Speaking of European hoplology, have there been any definite finds on the combat systems used by the Roman legionnaires, particularly scutum et gladius? Someone once told me a friend of his had scanned and burned a whole collection of unearthed Roman field manuals and such onto CD for him, but I was a little doubtful.

[zefff]

that would be interesting stuff. IIRC wasnt the gladius the most effective killing instrument ever in all history, in terms of actual number of kills?

[UK Scrapper]

The gladius was a highly efficient killing tool because it was very fast. Although it lacked the length of other swords of the era it was easily weilded in one hand and was able to deliver more strikes faster to supress combatants armed with much larger and fearsome weapons.
I am very sceptical of any military field manuals unearthed from Roman times. Sounds abit dodgy to me.

[Hengest]

Yeah, I'd agree with Scrapper on the manuals. Such a find would be the hoplological story of the century, but I haven't heard anything about it.

[setsu nin to]

I think that I know what it is. I know for some CD that that you could (maybe still can) buy. But it was to expensive for material that it offerd. All informations were take from latin books, but not combat manuals. So things were wrong translated, some things were added from who knows where...
I dont know maybe its not same CD. I know for these one.