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09-13-2004, 08:02 AM
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We're all enjoying this thread, guv. Your hoplology has us all discombobulated (how's that for throat-twisting vowellellelation?)

Great thread!
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09-13-2004, 08:15 AM
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We're all enjoying this thread, guv. Your hoplology has us all discombobulated
Discombobulated?!?! My God mate, what porn mag did you get that from?

But in all seriousness, cheers for the kind words. It's nice to know I'm not the only one getting something out of this.
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09-13-2004, 08:16 AM
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You're welcome guv. And, FYI, I don't pick up porn mags for the words
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09-14-2004, 04:29 PM
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Ugh. 2 for 2 on the French having things I need to look into. If this keeps up, I might not be able to maintain my decent, American level of hatred for the frog bastards

Cheers, Hengest.
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09-15-2004, 02:20 AM
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Ugh. 2 for 2 on the French having things I need to look into. If this keeps up, I might not be able to maintain my decent, American level of hatred for the frog bastards
Know what you mean. "England: Hating the French since 1066!"

If you haven't located it already, I meant to post this link in my answer to your question but just plain forgot.

http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/lejeudelahache.htm

This is an English translation of the text of Le Jeu de la Hache, with an accompanying article by Sydney Anglo (Anglo's always worth a read). The same site has some excerpts from the other works I mentioned as well, which you might find interesting.
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09-18-2004, 08:02 AM
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Sorry that I seem to dominate your thread, mate, but I've always had an interest in the history of violence.

I've heard from some historical thinkers that warfare in the times of the Ancient Greeks was in all actuality about as violent as American Football. Of course, the general consensus of people still view war as war and would naturally conclude that ancient warfare was indeed a bloody affair. I was curious as to your take on the matter. Were the 'good ole days' of war just giant shoving matches and intimidation politics, or were our ancestors as savage as we think? Also, since I heard this about the Greeks specifically, can this concept really be applied to all ancient cultures, or just the aforementioned hoplites?
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09-18-2004, 06:57 PM
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IIRC Im sure I heard this might of been the case with certain tribes in Africa too, evn to a relatively recent time? Could it be true? I guess we must consider that the dark ages are what followed and the civilisations that emerged were far beyond those that where lost in intellectual terms.
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09-20-2004, 04:02 PM
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why on earth.....do people bother to immitate animals?in your oppinion...........
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09-20-2004, 06:44 PM
Default re: MA History Q&A

On a history/resource note- What do you think of the author "Giles Morton"? He has written a few books on history, but as novels rather than a text book. The one that comes to mind is "Samurai William", the true story of William Adams as a western man given honour of wearing the two swords by Ieyasu Tokagawa in the 1600's, after the battle of Sekigahara.

cheers,

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09-25-2004, 04:34 AM
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Boys, boys, boys, please accept my humble apologies for my not being around to answer your questions. I will get to it without further delay. That said, after all this time, I may have to give three rather unsatisfactory answers....

Aynerhoo, Des first. Mate, don't worry about taking up the thread. Your questions are always welcome. They're always a challenge for me and fun to answer.

On this topic though, I must be honest. Although I have heard about these theories of Greek warfare being a little more than a playground ruck, I haven't come across many in-depth articles on it, so I'm not particularly au fait with the technical points of the arguement. If you or zefff has links to any articles or know of any other sources where I can educate myself I'd be grateful!

Looking at it from a general POV though, I'd have to say that it seems unlikely to me. First of all, it would seem to suggest to me a vast conspiracy spanning all the writers of classical history ever, which just doesn't ring true. Accounts of battles from the time are usually quick to mention the huge number of casualties that took place and, while I accept that all writings should be questioned as everyone is prone to embellishing the facts, to say that "4,000 dead" actually meant "one broken ankle, a groin strain, two yellow cards and the substitution of Achilles shortly after half-time" is pushing it somewhat. Of course, as I say, classical writers were no doubt prone to exaggeration, but if the barbarism of war was supposed to offend ancient Greek sensibilities, why glorify it?

Secondly, what self-respecting warlord is going to accept defeat because he was outpostured? You're fighting for territory, riches, power or just in an effort to ensure the survival of your people; would you really let that all go because the opposing army's champion was a big lad and gave the scrum the leverage it needed to win? Even if there was a gentlemen's agreement that that was how war was going to be, surely it would only take one ambitious guy to up the ante in the quest for power. "I've got an idea! What if we were to actually use our swords!?" That one guy would find himself to be king of the world in a very short space of time I would imagine.

Also, in the case that it is a charge that is levelled at the Greeks only, if they were used to playing "touch warfare", how could they possibly have been a match for such elite outfits as the Immortals of Persia? It renders battles such as Thermopylae as entirely meaningless, which, personally, I have a problem with.

So, no, I don't really buy it. But, as I say, I've never read any decent work on the opposing theory so, perhaps I should reserve judgement until I'm in a better position to comment!
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