[Jimmy Lee]

Scott Sonnon explains in Fisticuffs that "casting" strikes can be used for striking and grappling simultaneously without distinction. Can anyone explain this?

[Ninja Kl0wn]

Simple. You don't know if the guy is going to hit you or grab you. Since so many people like to use the long hook as an example of casting, I'll do the same for simplicity sake. When I throw a long hook, it's hard to tell whether I'm aiming to hit you or grab you behind the head and pull you in for a plumm. I could do either at my discretion. OR, I could do both. Meaning I could slam a nice hard forearm shot into your neck as I grab you.

Of course, I haven't seen the video so I'm guessing here.

[Jimmy Lee]

Kewl. That must be why Scott works with both military and UFC types. But what I dont understand is if its so simple then why isnt everyone doing it? I mean people still dont even respect the Russian martial arts. The clips of Scott fighting that Ive seen online are just SCARY!!!!!

[Irish_Blood]

From what I got out of it, casting is a fast strike carried out by torquing (I know it sounds bad, but it's not) joints in succession enroute to a target.

Think of a whip strike to the jaw. Put your arm out, turn your body and the strike hits the opponent in the jawline.

Casting (from what I understand) is when you put your arm out, enroute you'd turn your elbow, wrist and palm a second before making contact, creating twice the amount of rotational force into the area.

A good part about this strike is it makes the adversary tense up the part of the body he was just hit in... Which is a good way to follow up with a "I'll hit you different" kind of punch. *winks at DCohen*

This particular move is all done while relaxed.

In his tape "Fisticuffs" which I just got to look over from my Systema instructor, he demonstrates some interesting and useful strikes, as well as drills.

However, some of the strikes and movements he does are too "Boxer-esque" and prone to creating a situation when you square off of someone (Systema tries to move on multiple planes). Also, he seems to tense parts of his body (shoulder, for example in casting) while moving and creating strikes, which in Systema we try to avoid.
Also, he bashes whipstrikes and emphasizes casting. Yes, casting are good strikes, but I've felt whipstrikes that were twice as hard.

All in all.. Casting is a good close-quarters strike instead of a liniar hook or jab. But not the best punch out there.

[Coach Chomycia]

There is no such thing as the best strike, just the one that works at the time.

I would like to clear up the difference between Casting and Whipping because there is solid science behind why casting is preferred by RMAX.
The first is the difference in the amount of joints incorporated into the movement. Casting utilizes each joint to add torque to the strike while whipping strikes tend to utilize only a few. The distinction is made on the video.
The efficiency of casting striking is further increased beyond the joints when you take into a account that casting creates more fulcrums and leverage force just because it contains better quality of movement.
This is why casting in preferred by RMAX because in a fight you most likely not going to be on balance so you must learn how to get the most out of your movement in order to strike well while off balance.
There is one more advantage to a casting strike and that is since your movement is more sophisticated and the energy more dispersed through your joints, this type of striking is more sustainable and less likely to cause the practitioner problems later in life. For those of us who want to train for a long time that is an important factor considering that the longer you train the more likely you are to accumulate injuries.

Regarding,

Yes, casting are good strikes, but I've felt whipstrikes that were twice as hard.

Is it possible that you have felt whipping strikes that are harder than casting strikes?
Yes, if you were being hit by someone who was better at whipping strikes than casting ones. Everyone intuitively knows how to punch and whip their arms, casting requires practice just to be able to perform, Like Jack Dempsey said in his book "Great punchers aren't born they are made"(Paraphrased) If you talk to some of the more experienced strikers even the ones who do whipping strikes about their technique you'll find that across the board they have started using more joints and movement with in their strikes to make them more efficient, useful, and sustainable.
All you have to do is look at the difference between amateur boxers and seasoned pros to see the difference.

As far as these comments are concerned,

Also, he bashes whipstrikes and emphasizes casting.

I find this comment has no relevance other than to try discredit someone's point of view on a particular strategy. Does Coach Sonnon prefer Casting to Whipping? You bet he does! But he doesn't just go and bash a particular MA strategy for no reason. He was trying to describe his point of view on the subject. I also know from direct experience that if it came up in a fight and whipping was the appropriate strategy then that's what he would use despite what he prefers.

However, some of the strikes and movements he does are too "Boxer-esque" and prone to creating a situation when you square off of someone (Systema tries to move on multiple planes).

I can see where you could get confused on this one, most of the tape is filmed inside a boxing ring. Boxers by the way move on multiple planes, in fact it is impossible for human beings to not move on multiple planes. Boxing is a limited combat sport, which is why it looks limited(less overall movement) compared to real fights or MMA fights.

Also, he seems to tense parts of his body (shoulder, for example in casting) while moving and creating strikes, which in Systema we try to avoid.

Tension in striking is necessary to minimize trauma in the joints, the question is how much and when.

Finally the original question,

Scott Sonnon explains in Fisticuffs that "casting" strikes can be used for striking and grappling simultaneously without distinction. Can anyone explain this?

An explaination is going to fall short of seeing and feeling; but I'll try anyway.
When you grapple you use your arms, and hands in certain ways. When you hit people you use your arms and hands in certain ways as well. Many people see these as 2 very different things but what is it that they have common? Arms and Hands! So you are using the same hardware for 2 different uses, the next logical step is to use the same movement for multiple uses. What RMAX does for its clients is help to guide them along to more efficient masterful MA performance faster, by programming it directly into the education.

Talk to you soon.

Coach Dan Chomycia
RMAX Instructor

[Irish_Blood]

Hello Coach Chomycia, you raised some interesting points (though if this continues we should do it in PM form so we don't get too much off topic.)

First off, this was not a bash on RMAX. I've bought a good amount of videos from Mr.Sonnon and got a lot out of them.

I do use casting while working, but I didn't know what it was called. I kind of discovered it on my own. During training we saw them as "rope punches" because of how they moved toward the target.
I'm also no expert on RMAX itself, and the review was an opinion or view on what I had got out of the tape.

There is no such thing as the best strike, just the one that works at the time.

I agree.

This is why casting in preferred by RMAX because in a fight you most likely not going to be on balance so you must learn how to get the most out of your movement in order to strike well while off balance.

Good point, but whip strikes delivered from the shoulder can be done off balence also.

...since your movement is more sophisticated and the energy more dispersed through your joints, this type of striking is more sustainable and less likely to cause the practitioner problems later in life. For those of us who want to train for a long time that is an important factor considering that the longer you train the more likely you are to accumulate injuries.

Interesting! Do you have any reference for this? Or any more material on it? This might be something I should bring up next time in class...

I find this comment has no relevance other than to try discredit someone's point of view on a particular strategy.

Totally not true. It just hit me in a weird way when he was showing the differences in it. As stated before, I use RMAX concepts in my work.. Why would I put them down?

I can see where you could get confused on this one, most of the tape is filmed inside a boxing ring. Boxers by the way move on multiple planes, in fact it is impossible for human beings to not move on multiple planes. Boxing is a limited combat sport, which is why it looks limited(less overall movement) compared to real fights or MMA fights.

The actual reason for this was that he was not moving "around" the opponent, instead going "through" their defense. It may have just been done for filming purposes. But to the watcher, that's what it came off as.

[Arthur]

I've been avoiding posting on another thread here for about a week But this one seems to have some room for serious discussion and some so0cial smooth over

Scott Sonnon explains in Fisticuffs that "casting" strikes can be used for striking and grappling simultaneously without distinction. Can anyone explain this?

At the risk of sounding like an elitist snob... I really don't understand how this can be avoided. "Inertia is!" To see grappling and striking as separate and distinct, seems like a lot of effort directed towards a non-logical goal.

From what I got out of it, casting is a fast strike carried out by torquing (I know it sounds bad, but it's not) joints in succession enroute to a target.

I disagree. IMO, speed has nothing to do with it, and sequenctial muscular recruitment is more important than "joints" per se.

Casting (from what I understand) is when you put your arm out, enroute you'd turn your elbow, wrist and palm a second before making contact, creating twice the amount of rotational force into the area.
I don't mean to be calling one of my "homies" out in public,but I disagree. Let's talk about it in class. FWIW, I think I saw Mario hit you with a fair amount of casting strikes last Saturday. He likes the casting strikes you know.

Which is a good way to follow up with a "I'll hit you different" kind of punch. *winks at DCohen*

LMAO!

In his tape "Fisticuffs" which I just got to look over from my Systema instructor, he demonstrates some interesting and useful strikes, as well as drills.

ooh thats me... I feel famous now. Seriously though... its a good tape. Plenty of nice material on there.

However, some of the strikes and movements he does are too "Boxer-esque" and prone to creating a situation when you square off of someone
Displaying RMA for a variety of audiences is always difficult. That which you'd show to RMA practitioners is the opposite of what you'd show to non-RMA practitioners. Its a pain in the ass and it sucks.

Systema tries to move on multiple planes

Systema always moves on multiple planes... and from what I've seen so does ROSS.
Yes, casting are good strikes, but I've felt whipstrikes that were twice as hard.
Don't mean to picking on you... but I guarantee I can let you feel casting strikes that are twice as hard as any whip strikes you've felt. For the record and conversation, with a little bit of experimental attitude in mind... I hit you after class on Saturday with a one inch strike... was that weaker or stronger than the whip strikes you've felt? The mechanics were casting based.

On to annoying someone else

I would like to clear up the difference between Casting and Whipping because there is solid science behind why casting is preferred by RMAX.

The best teacher I ever had (9th and 11th grade English) always said... the beginning of wisdom, is the definition of terms. Its easier for me to respond to "Irish_Blood" as he is now in my classes and I have a sense of how he views and approaches things... but I realize that as I go forward with this discussion Mr. Chomycia and myself might have very differnet definitions of the same terms.
I have found their are several differnt versions of whip strikes floating around. even within the Systema community, let alone the rMA community... their are multiple versions. I agrtee that the vast majority of whip strike training I see is injurious to the joints. Though I would add that their are methods of throwing whip strikes that circumvent that issue. Of course that change starts to put them in the realm of the casting strike... albeit on a wider arc than normally shown.

There is one more advantage to a casting strike and that is since your movement is more sophisticated and the energy more dispersed through your joints, this type of striking is more sustainable and less likely to cause the practitioner problems later in life. For those of us who want to train for a long time that is an important factor considering that the longer you train the more likely you are to accumulate injuries.

This is a really important point. Much of the whip strike practice I've seen, will leave the practitioner crippled after a period of time.

I find this comment has no relevance other than to try discredit someone's point of view on a particular strategy.

Then you should look more deeply. There is a history of cyber war between Systema and ROSS. Those of us that were their when those wars were in action, have reference points that can influence what we think and how we perceive things. This is a good place to write about this... to address this... because I KNOW Irish_Blood had no intention or thought of malicious content. I think if you ask around the ROSS community you'll find a consensus that my students are some of the least likely to make such comments with an agenda. Such tactics simply won't be tolerated at my school.Likewise the ROSS practioners that take place in class have built up some pretty loyal ties among the students, and I don;t think the students would attempt to attack their classmates.

In fact it is impossible for human beings to not move on multiple planes.
I agree wholle heartdly. Though I must admit some people try their damnedest to do so.

Tension in striking is necessary to minimize trauma in the joints, the question is how much and when.

This comment I have issues with. First there is that issue of term definition again. What is tension? There is muscular tension, The tension derived by contraction in an agonist... and their is mechanical tension. mechanical tension being a pulling force put on musculo-skeletal tissue. Without knowing which we are talking about (they manifest as direct opposites) we really can't have a meaningful talk on the subject. On the other hand, I can hit with a lack of either and make it hurt pretty darn good.

First off, this was not a bash on RMAX. I've bought a good amount of videos from Mr.Sonnon and got a lot out of them.

I'd have to second that.
During training we saw them as "rope punches" because of how they moved toward the target.
Good stuff Irish_Blood. I like to see you thinking in terms of simple machines and their componenets.

Good point, but whip strikes delivered from the shoulder can be done off balence also.

I agree... and if understood properly... from many points.

Interesting! Do you have any reference for this? Or any more material on it? This might be something I should bring up next time in class...
Please bring it up. Many classes before you joined I brought that up. I'm always happy to talk about it some more.

Arthur

[MattW63]

Psst... Arthur... I'm not Irish_Blood. I was the one you hit after class. That's Andrew

[dcohen]

Yes. I think BOTH of you should get hit again, for...eh....informational purposes.

(i.e., yes I'm volunteering).

Though Mario, I'm pretty sure, doesn't consider himself a ROSS guy, I have noticed that his strikes have an interesting "something" to them which I can't explain quite yet. This is due to being on the receiving end 100% of the time when I'm thinking about them, but I'll keep it in mind next time I see him working with someone else.

In a lot of ways it seems like the vector is changed with an UNWINDING of tension (the tensile kind, not contraction of agonist/antagonist muscles) which has been building up throughout the strike. This unwind happens on contact, and is really disorienting. It seems like psychologically, that kind of strike (and its effect) gets people stuck in components 1/2 of the OODA cycle. Just when the body starts moving with a good evasion and the mind tacks on some extra movement to get you into a better position, vector changes and you go from steps 3 and the beginning of 4, back to 1 and 2.

Though I've never thought about it, on a micromanagement level, in addition to just letting the other guy run into every obstacle you can leave/put in his way, your strikes themselves can be designed to get the psychological "freeze." I'm thinking, combine some casts as they are talked about here, wait for the freeze, then root them with a downward hit from their Center of Gravity to the floor...and then do whatever since the opponent is both mentally and physically freeze framed.

Something to experiment with. *attempts to lure Irish_Blood into volunteering*

-Dave

[Coach Chomycia]

Thanks for your patience guys, were gearing up for a big event this weekend.

There is a lot to post on so I'll try to be brief on responding to your comments.

First off, this was not a bash on RMAX. I've bought a good amount of videos from Mr.Sonnon and got a lot out of them.

I'd have to second that.

If 2 of you say you weren't bashing then that's good enough for me. I'm glad I commented because it made sure that there wasn't a misunderstanding for those who read this forum.

Arthur thanks for posting and clearing up some points.
On to the others,

Random Quote:

Tension in striking is necessary to minimize trauma in the joints, the question is how much and when.

This comment I have issues with. First there is that issue of term definition again. What is tension? There is muscular tension, The tension derived by contraction in an agonist... and their is mechanical tension. mechanical tension being a pulling force put on musculo-skeletal tissue. Without knowing which we are talking about (they manifest as direct opposites) we really can't have a meaningful talk on the subject. On the other hand, I can hit with a lack of either and make it hurt pretty darn good.

To learn what tension is about Coach Sonnon has a great article about it in CST Magazine called the Integrity of Tension.

Though I would add that their are methods of throwing whip strikes that circumvent that issue. Of course that change starts to put them in the realm of the casting strike... albeit on a wider arc than normally shown.

This is exactly the point, keep moving up the continuum towards casting through trial and error or you can just learn how to do it straight out the gate and save your joints. RMAX continues to lead the industry in research and development into what makes MA and Physical Culture produce the fastest, healthiest, lasting results in your personal practice. RMAX isn't interested in the proliferation of a Style of fighting or training, it's interested in what Enhances the performance of it's Clients. This is why the "Fisticuffs" Video a small course filmed a few years ago, directed towards sport fighters looked the way it did. It was so that RMAX could build a bridge to that audience through it's material. Casting isn't a Type or Style of striking, it is a movement pattern that teaches someone to strike more efficiently. If you have ever been hit by Coach Sonnon you would know it more fun to be kicked by horse than to deal with that trauma. Ask me how I know! Training and working with him privately these last few years has been the most productive and physically painful experiences of my life! It seems every time I adapt to this new level of pain he knows it and has another level ready and waiting for me. I would gladly exchange the blows from Fisticuffs with the ones I had to deal with this afternoon!

Getting back to the subject, since casting is a great movement pattern( not a technique) you can decide how you want to use it. Bring your over hook down hard on his neck or blast his armpit up on your way an under hook. With RMAX you ultimately decide exactly how to accomplish your tactical goal without the limitation of either Grappling or Striking.

Talk to you soon!
Coach Dan Chomycia
RMAX Instructor