[dcohen]

I think it's fairly obvious. Does this kind of thing happen in real life, in real fights, ALL THE TIME?

Yes.

Do people train for this? Do you? No idea...but IME, 99% of martial artists don't. Is this some kind of pie-in-the-f***ing-sky street duel? No. Is it a fair fight? No. Did the guy on the ground necessarily see it coming? Hah! Consider yourself the luckiest person ever if you see a good ambush or attack coming...and here's of course the big flame drawing comment, but you asked - do you know of lots of "groundfighting" or "reality" arts that regularly make these situations a part of their training?

THAT'S the point. That's the kind of thing that really happens, and too many people prefer to stay in imaginary fight land where things like that don't happen if you don't know how to deal with it. If you want to be truly effective when the brown hits the blades, you need to be able to not freak out when you fall down and three guys start going to town on you. Download 50 fight clips, real fights, from your favorite P2P program. You see a lot of dueling? Lots of complex maneuvering and positioning going on? These subjects, really bad situations that can happen to anyone, are worth covering in class, just because there's a damn good chance it might happen if you get into a fight and there's more people than just you and the guy you're angry with.

As for the kicking strength...hehehehe...I've already invited you before, but hell, if we ever catch up, feel free to kick me as hard as you like during that kind of drill.

Don't take this post as an angry outburst...merely a surprised one. I figured the point of the drill, and that type of training, is fairly obvious.

-Dave

[jlambvo]

I'm assuming you weren't allowed to attempt any kind of counters/tripping/etc during the drill?

Really interesting drill though, never heard of this one. GJ

[MattW63]

He could have attempted a counter, but considering he had no idea what was going on his first instinct was to move and get out of there.

In response to dscott, some of the kicks were fairly hard. Others were not as hard because of the movements he was making. It made it hard for tracking and if the kick landed it simply "rolled" off his body, making it look "not strong."

[Arthur Sennott]

I find that no matter what you film, no matter what you show, there is always a problem. If someone looks good, everyone assumes the opponents were complying. If some one struggles, then they weren't good enough and what they do sucks.

I find it interesting that on so many martial arts boards the bar to pass for what is real is... looking like you are struggling. It doesn't say much about peoples own respect for their arts or their own ability. what IS the point of studying any martial art if the criteria is a struggle? Isn't the point of studying finding something that allows you to be victorious without struggle?

At any rate... a few thoughts to clarify what has been written (even though I'm guessing the context of what I say will be changed in short order)...

The clip is interesting in my opinion because of several things, and I've found myself learning and picking up on things during the 20th viewing.

Dave was sucker attacked... the drill wasn't announced. I invited him to come down for the day, I asked him to get down on all fours while I was showing something completely different.

I surprised him by kicking him... mob mentality being what it is... the other two people joined in. Dave had no idea or hint of what was too happen.

I was kicking Dave hard enough to easily break two boards, and to likely break 3-4. Gaucho was doing the same, and with shoes on, Matt took a bit to realize what was going on, but eventually started stomping on him pretty good. Gaucho is a master of a art that specializes in low kicking and can deliver very powerful kicks from seemingly awkward angles.

In my first Systema class my teacher (Vladimir Vasiliev) said in real life you must first apply reaction after that you can apply knowledge. IMO, Dave does a superior job of this. He first believes he is in a safe environment where massage type work is going to be applied, and he is then rudely awakened... with a kick to the ribs capable of braking bone (trust me there is no doubt about that), and then quickly ambushed by 2 more people. he uses systema absorption techniques to deal with the initial blows, then moves on to escaping. In the process of escaping, his bearing come to him and you can see the beginning of counters and checks (if you look closely. He escapes and realizes the drill will stop, so he renters the fray. With his bearings more firmly in place he begins suggesting counters, though generally leaving them light enough to allow the drill to continue. Eventually he moved in a way that would have broken a participants leg (Matt)... I saw the situation and I called time.

Dave makes motions that would easily break two knees in two, and several motions that would cause a trip, fall or jamming. If you look closely you can see these things.

It was a spontaneous drill with no rules explained, Dave was enough of a man, to give up opportunities to "win", so the drill might continue.

Well my opinion any way.

Arthur

[zefff]

I dont think anyone dissed the vid in this thread. If people ever do diss, its only because what they see does not fit the image they have in their head. The funny thing is when I ever see a vid of myself it never fits my image I have of myself. I look terrible in vids!

When people say "oh this is crap!" its a shame because we cant all post vids where its like "yeah this is me KOing my mate again". Some of us have to drive home at night after being revived.

I liked the vid and as I asked before, I was really interested in his movement and how he had lost fear for his head and spine. Its true too that sometimes when people are attacking, you let them get away with things because you want to experiment more. I can understand that.

[bamboo]

I find that no matter what you film, no matter what you show, there is always a problem. If someone looks good, everyone assumes the opponents were complying. If some one struggles, then they weren't good enough and what they do sucks.

I find it interesting that on so many martial arts boards the bar to pass for what is real is... looking like you are struggling. It doesn't say much about peoples own respect for their arts or their own ability. what IS the point of studying any martial art if the criteria is a struggle? Isn't the point of studying finding something that allows you to be victorious without struggle?

Mr. Sennot, perhaps I missed it but noone on this board said anithing negative at all about the clip. One person did question what was happening but he did so respectfuly and recieved what I thought to be an approriate answer. I learned something and was able to go to the dojo and put something into practice thanks to mr. Cohen.

Mr. Cohen is a long time member of this board and used in my opinion good judgement in posting this clip, he was able to open some eyes and inspire others.

On another note, DCOHEN: I was able to practice the clean breathing when recieving a few good body blows and must say it was rough at first, but after some practice was able to really feel the dissipation of impact with this breathing technique. The importance of maintaining a calm composure is important here, as I found out quickly. As well, I showed the clip to my teacher and he thought that a "surprise attack" on an unsuspecting senior student or two would be a great idea.

Cheers!!!!

-s

[dscott]

I understand that this thing happens all the time and I like the fact that you train in this type of situation, especially since it was an ambush and dcohen didn't have any clue it was going to happen. However, the thing that is bothering me is how everyone going on about how hard he was being hit. Like I said in my previous post, maybe I'd be singing a different tune if it were me being attacked, but I've watched it over and over again and it doesn't look that hard to me, unless my eyes are deceiving me.

[CreativeFighter]

LOL. That's the beauty of it.
It doesn't look like hard hits. Wait, you're in Boston...
I sense some RMA coming your way

-Ilya

[dscott]

He's actually invited me down there before. I've thought about it but it's 45 minutes away and I'm already at a school. From being on this forum and seeing different clips and reading different posts about RMA, it's sparked my interest. Don't get me wrong, I'm not shooting down what he's doing in the clip.

[CreativeFighter]

Man, if I had the opportunity you had, I'd be down there every day of the year.
Try it, they won't go TOO hard on you

-Ilya