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02-02-2005, 12:51 PM
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I know it wasnt freestyle work. I mentioned Dave imposing his intent, not resisting another mans intent.

I dont need to be shown the light as I can appreciate what is happening as I see it from my point of view.

I was just trying to say that these types of vids dont convey or capture the essence of an art best for education (especially in this day and age) of those that have a narrow viewpoint, thats all.
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02-02-2005, 02:02 PM
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Then we've been in agreement all along.
I certainly learned something.

-Ilya
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02-02-2005, 07:03 PM
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Hmm. I still disagree. I have known at least 2 guys who mugged people for a living that I am sure about, and both of them had this kind of intent. To prevent your opponent from feeling what you're going to do, you relax your movements and focus past them...then you pursue your goal with whatever force you have decided to use.

If I was trying to kill him, he'd have been sucker stabbed or shot in the head as I passed. My intent (as real as it can get for training, which is pretty damn real) is to get his money, to take him hostage. During that demonstration I was ready to cut his throat or gut him if my brain noticed him not complying immediately, raising his hands, or trying to push me away. If his movement doesn't work, he's getting it in the throat or belly. It's that simple.

As for "intent..." You're preaching to the choir on that one, I'm the last guy that's going to try to tell you that the training hall is just like the street. The point where we disagree is just that I have found the training to be much, much harder than what I've faced in terms of real-life empty hand, multiple attacker, and edged weapons situations.

Last point, quickly before I have to go: I didn't post this video for someone who didn't know anything about combative science/physics...they can worry about their own training. I posted it for the guys who I KNOW are on here who can get something out of it. And to have someone like you say what you said, so I can be having this conversation .

Ciao.

-Dave
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02-02-2005, 07:39 PM
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Respect to you guys, I would love to have a crack at some Systema to see and feel first hand. maybe one day.

I didnt understand what you were saying about the muggers DCohen, but Ive known many muggers and thugs, also Ive been mugged myself. The trend Ive seen was barked orders to the victim to stay completely still while they rifled through his pockets. Thats what Ive seen and thats what happened to me too.

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"During that demonstration I was ready to cut his throat or gut him if my brain noticed him not complying immediately, raising his hands, or trying to push me away. If his movement doesn't work, he's getting it in the throat or belly."
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So what is it that causes you not to notice his responses, what makes it work?

cheers.
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02-03-2005, 01:20 PM
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Aha! Sweet question, I'll attempt an answer when I'm home from school.

-Dave
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02-04-2005, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by zefff
So what is it that causes you not to notice his responses, what makes it work?
Okay, here goes. An attacker (me in this case) who has some sort of goal also has a way of recognizing that goal. How does he know he's "done?" He has your wallet, he has you scared, you're lying in a pool of your own arterial blood, whatever the goal is, the attacker has some pre-thought-out way of recognizing it. When you find yourself in a situation like this, you play with the other person's "programming" to really mess them up and extract yourself from the situation.

An attacker who's mugged a few people before will have a good idea of what to expect in his mind. Think along the lines of

"if he yells, I cut his throat/shoot him"

"if he tries to bat my hand away, I circle, come back, and shoot him"

"if he says "no" when I tell him to give me his wallet, I cut his throat/stab him/shoot him in the head"

"if he raises his hands after I tell him not to, I kill him"

But there are others. For example -
"if he doesn't understand the threat/see the weapon I'm using, intimidation isn't working. I'm going to show him the weapon, hold it into his face or tell him how I'm going to kill him to intimidate him better"

"if he tells me to fuck off, I respond back and kill him"

And the worst case:
"If he doesn't register the threat, I kill him anyway."

There's some basic thought patterns/triggers/whatever you want to call them. On to manipulating them. Someone relying on a Blitzkrieg-style overwhelming intimidation with a weapon can be coaxed into a disarm by pretending not to see his weapon. He shoves the gun into your face, you take it away. This is the psychological stuff, made practical.

Here's what is happening in a good portion of that clip: I am threatening with a knife held to the throat, torso, etc - wherever I'm comfortable and feel "in control." Arthur uses basic physics to change small things in the situation (my alignment, distance from my torso to the weapon, distance from the weapon to his throat, etc). Many are too small for me to feel and I don't register them as threats, but if I do notice and try to cut/stab, pull the trigger, I find that I am either in a really bad position, or Arthur just has to take one step and break my neck to kill me.

In addition, you'll see Arthur "sneak" his hand up to create a wedge between the knife and his throat (when I threaten from the front with a blade to his jugular). If I'm experienced and I ripcut out of it, and for some aweful reason he is still standing there, the worst I cut is his fingers. If he's not completely stupid and simply rotates his wrist as I ripcut out, I won't even get those.

This is basic basic BASIC stuff. It is really simple - 7 and 8 year olds were doing fine when I was hostaging them with like 80% intent and 100% speed after 10 minutes of demonstration/practice with a partner. If it looks complicated, you're attributing too much skill to something that's simple.

Anyways, a drill to get good at this quickly is to get a partner and a blade. Have him hold it wherever he wants, and SLOWLY move/realign/change things in the situation. Ask him to tell you when his "oh shit, he's doing something" alarms go off. You'll be amazed at the kind of freedom you have even in training - and in real life, you have MUCH more room to move around, because you're expected to be scared shitless and twitchy, which makes small adjustments even harder to identify, much less read.

Whenever you're watching video, just see it as physics. It's only rubber bands, incline planes, gears, and a few other simple machines. Seeing stuff in terms of arms, legs, stances, footwork, attacks, and defenses is just wayyy too complicated. Simple simple simple. Simple keeps me alive.

-Dave
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02-04-2005, 01:48 AM
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Nice post Dave.
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02-04-2005, 02:05 AM
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Awww, Dave, you talk about Systema in terms of machines and you don't even mention the SCREW?!?!

I'm disapointed, I LOVE the screw.

-Ilya
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02-04-2005, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by CreativeFighter
Zeff.....
Simple question, simple answers.
Most martial arts refuse to deal with the reality of knife defense because they all see the same solution: Fight your way out of it. And that solution has virtually no success rate.
The guy has a KNIFE for christ's sake! How the hell can you fight him and expect to come out the winner, or even alive?
In this situation, it's easy to come out the winner. You just have to have as much intent to kill as your opponent. Furthermore, I don't know about where you live, but not too many knife wounds are hard for the local hospital to fix up up here. If somebody brings out a knife, I'm not exactly shitting my pants.

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That's why you don't fight him. Do you run? The reality is that sometimes you don't have time to. Sometimes shit just happens, you see a knife coming at you and you can either sit there and watch your internal organs get cut to bits, or you can do something about it.
If you don't have time to do something, you haven't been training properly.

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If you do it right. If you've trained enough. If you've trained CORRECTLY. You won't fight the guy, yet he'll find himself unconscious and on the ground. Nothing magical there, just the simple concept of not resisting. If the guy never knows that there's resistance, he won't adjust his actions to meet that resistance.
So, you expect to knock a guy out without him noticing that you're throeing punches or entering for a throw? Either you're a super ninja, the likes of which have never been seen before, or you're full of it.

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Suddenly sharp objects coming at you look like fun.
Given my teen years, I don't think I see them any other way.
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02-04-2005, 05:39 PM
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Who said anything about "throwing punches/entering a for a throw"?
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